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vancanman
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 29
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 Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:46 am Post subject: Degree plus TEFL for work visa? |
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I have been told by Wall St you need both these things now in order to get a work visa for BJ, SH, or SZ. I think it could be more like Wall St policy.
I worked for Web back in 2005 in SH, w/o degree but with teaching certs, and knew at least 2 others w/o degrees with work visas. Hard to imagine the policy would change so drastically. Of course in China there are ways around these things, such as just working on a Business visa, or the correct relationship with the authorities.
Anyone care to weigh in on this? Is this actually being enforced on any scale? |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| You are, perhaps, giving the phrase "drastic change" a whole new world of meanings! |
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prof
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 741
Location: Boston/China
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:11 am Post subject: Re: Degree plus TEFL for work visa? |
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| vancanman wrote: |
I worked for Web back in 2005 in SH, w/o degree but with teaching certs, and knew at least 2 others w/o degrees |
And this is why Web is a pathetic joke.
Were the students aware that their teachers didn't even have BA degrees?
Money will still change hands and the visas will come. But one report from a concerned student or teacher upset with this scam will shine the PSB light on the situation and it will lead to fines and possible deportations. |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: |
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I need something expained.
Here, in my [albeit backward] part of the world, you can't get teaching certification until you have a degree. And CELTA et al doesn't qualify.
It needs to be a BEd, or post graduate TESOL through a university.
So what do "teaching certs" mean in this case? |
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prof
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 741
Location: Boston/China
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| eslstudies wrote: |
I need something expained.
Here, in my [albeit backward] part of the world, you can't get teaching certification until you have a degree. And CELTA et al doesn't qualify.
It needs to be a BEd, or post graduate TESOL through a university.
So what do "teaching certs" mean in this case? |
Most of these people teaching without undergraduate degrees (the ones regularly employed in China by schools such as Web and Wall St.) use the term "teaching certs" to mean TEFL/TESL degrees they purchased from companies. "$299 and you're a teacher even if that first year poly sci class was too tough!" deals. And no one every fails.
Wall St. and Web prefer teachers who aren't very qualified. They aren't as "uppity" and they are cheap. The money saved on salaries and benefits go to the local corrupt authorities. Even if the extra profit is gone, they still expand the labor pool of potential hires. For these outfits, having a BA means one likely lacks the 'proper respect' for management.
But I'll wait for the OP (a Web vet) to explain. |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Well, if some of the bigger centres are getting more demanding with qualifications, then good for them. And bad luck for the bottom feeders. |
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prof
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 741
Location: Boston/China
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| eslstudies wrote: |
| Well, if some of the bigger centres are getting more demanding with qualifications, then good for them. And bad luck for the bottom feeders. |
Who wrote that?
The real problem for people without degrees is that now there are more and more people just like them pouring into the marketplace! So while they used to be able to undercut qualified teachers who refused to scam students, they now find themselves in competition with hundreds of people just like themselves.
"Hey that guy with a grade 8 education is willing to work for a crazy wage! What if the students really knew the truth!?! How'd he get a visa with no BA? I got 2 years of college behind me and that means sum'thin!!" |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:30 am Post subject: |
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Walking talking Jesus, we agreed on something!
Who goes for treatment first? |
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vancanman
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:23 am Post subject: Clearing the air somewhat |
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Ah, the old debate: degree vs no degree!!
Well, in my case, Teaching Certs means this: Can Global TESOL, 60 hour course. UCLA, 60 hour course.
As far as the non-degree teachers I worked with, they were as good or better than those with degrees. So said by the students, and the teachers as a whole.
Do the students really care that much about a piece of paper? They just want what they feel is a good professional class. They may not get it from someone who has a degree. And they may get it from someone who does not. That's the reality of the real world.
In my 12 years I've seen good and bad teachers with or without degrees. I've been a DOS, HFT, and ran my own consulting business. Just think of Steve Jobs, or Bill Gates.
These degree people always hide on the internet and talk about everyone else like scum. No one has ever got in my face personally, because they don't have the balls, and I would cut them down to size in very short order if they ever did.
Degrees are nice I suppose but the real test in any profession is what you can do on the job. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Do the students really care that much about a piece of paper? |
maybe a few of your qualified FT counterparts do - especially when the unqualified holiday makers jump in, swamp the market with a cheap product, and harm wage earning potential.
But then again recruiters and bosses love your type - they can dress you up as qualified " FT spring Chicken" - and then pay you half the real wage because they tell you you're unqualified. After all just read the posts of Clark w Griswald - for some reason he really wants young white skins to flock to this place - and he reckons afew hours reading up on the job of FT through the net is qualification enough  |
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prof
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 741
Location: Boston/China
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Clearing the air somewhat |
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| vancanman wrote: |
Ah, the old debate: degree vs no degree!!
Well, in my case, Teaching Certs means this: Can Global TESOL, 60 hour course. UCLA, 60 hour course.
As far as the non-degree teachers I worked with, they were as good or better than those with degrees. So said by the students, and the teachers as a whole.
Do the students really care that much about a piece of paper? They just want what they feel is a good professional class. They may not get it from someone who has a degree. And they may get it from someone who does not. That's the reality of the real world.
In my 12 years I've seen good and bad teachers with or without degrees. I've been a DOS, HFT, and ran my own consulting business. Just think of Steve Jobs, or Bill Gates.
These degree people always hide on the internet and talk about everyone else like scum. No one has ever got in my face personally, because they don't have the balls, and I would cut them down to size in very short order if they ever did.
Degrees are nice I suppose but the real test in any profession is what you can do on the job. |
Oh you're so tough.
Do you tell the students about your lack of a degree? That "piece of paper " represents years of hard work, study, and experience IN school. Hard work, study, and experience (as well as an appreciation of education) that you DON'T HAVE.
Face facts. You don't even have a 3 year BA. You're not qualified and lucky to be able to find work. If you work, you're breaking the law.
If you work and are reported there will be an investigation and consequences such as fines and potential deportation.
The students like the teachers without degrees? Great. My nephew is 5 and he likes clowns. |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Clearing the air somewhat |
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| prof wrote: |
Face facts. You don't even have a 3 year BA. You're not qualified and lucky to be able to find work. If you work, you're breaking the law.
If you work and are reported there will be an investigation and consequences such as fines and potential deportation. |
As long as someone holds a valid FEC he/she is fully legal to teach. If the Chinese authorities want to issue FEC's to people without a degree like me, then obviously they feel that we are qualified. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| As long as someone holds a valid FEC he/she is fully legal to teach. If the Chinese authorities want to issue FEC's to people without a degree like me, then obviously they feel that we are qualified. |
well there is that fudge the paper work and shove a little money under the table "Chinese style" qualified (at least with regard to making an FT look qualified so they can gain that FEC) - which could be compared to the more conventional go to school for a few years and learn a bit about the job version (like in real teacher certified) - or indeed go to school get a degree, and at least gain some academic maturity and show potential employers that you have the discipline and problem solving skills that are required to pass through higher education.
When someone writes the kind of stuff as seen in the TW quote - well you could conclude they aint got much school time under their belts  |
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vancanman
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: One more time |
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Well, this kind of thread can and does go on forever.
I will need to bow out, as I am busy getting work and contracts at rates equal to or higher than anyone else out there.
By the way there are many ways to break the law regardless of what paper you are holding. Thought I'd point out that basic fact.
The other poster sounds as if he works for the CIA in predicting such dire consequenses. Typical American.
It's interesting that uni is such hard work. Wonder what the hourly rate is?
I respect the fact at least some Chinese schools hire who they believe can do the job whether or not the applicant holds this or that paper. As far as the FEC goes, I concur with the other non degree poster. In fact in any given country, for any given job, deciding if a foreigner is an "expert" is a subjective decision made by the appropriate authorities.
Interestingly enough, I have always earned the highest salary levels, either equal to or higher than my peers. Good enough for me. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| deciding if a foreigner is an "expert" is a subjective decision made by the appropriate authorities. |
A subjective decision - I suppose the laws state that the PSB have to go and look at an FT - and then get a "subjective feeling" regarding their expert status - not even going through the objective process of checking their academic/professional credentials  Has this happened to anyone  (I'm sure those objective processes of having the real papers or the boss bribing the authorities get most FT's their FEC)
Looks like the Vancanman aint got much schooling either - glad he aint teaching my kids English  |
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