Job Discussion Forums

gaijinalways · Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 2279

Hear "Toront" and "Orland" (sometimes I think they're talking about Holland Laughing

) all the time in Tokyo. As to Starbucks, you also get "Sta-ba'", which even I use now!

Synne · Joined: 06 Apr 2004 Posts: 269 Location: Tohoku

Hoser · Joined: 19 Mar 2005 Posts: 694 Location: Toronto, Canada

I hear Toront and Orland constantly. Orland is a popular one because Orlando is actually mentioned in one of the NOVA lessons. Coming from Toronto it sort of bugs me that they call it Toront, but then again I guess I should get my wrists slapped for referring to it as "Turrana"

furiousmilksheikali · Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:10 am Post subject:

Some Japanese web users seem happy to refer to the place as "Toront"

http://npo.iki2.jp/localcurrency/06/b_toront.html

http://www.plasma.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/jp/lab_pict/pict_17thispc.htm

http://www4.ocn.ne.jp/~nosyu/taiken/taican.htm

Willy_In_Japan · Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 329

My theory is that they think because we are always harping on about Katakana English, like "Friedo" and 'Starto" that they are just being 'correct' by getting rid of the 'o' at the end of "Toront".

I have been shocked too when ive heard people say 'Toront", but then again, I have no idea why people say 'She" for "Sea" and "See" for "She"

furiousmilksheikali · Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject:

BradS · Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 173 Location: Tokyo, Japan

kdynamic · Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 562 Location: Japan

Hahah good story about the girls going to Holland! That's ridiculous.

However, you're wrong about there being no need for Katakana. It serves its purpose. You say no one would miss it, but I would. It helps distinguish words without any spaces between them and gives another option for emphasis. Think of them like italics (we use italics for foreign words in english too).

I understand why the Japanese have issues with she/see and right/light and that sort of thing. But WHY can't they say "toronto" and "orlando"?? It makes no sense at all. I also have no problem when they come up with their own names for place. For example, LA is "rosu." Fine. We do it in English too ("Meksicko" instead of "Mehico," etc). But the toronto/orlando thing is just stupid.

PS it's romaji, not romaNji.

Venti · Joined: 19 Oct 2006 Posts: 171 Location: Kanto, Japan

furiousmilksheikali · Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject:

kdynamic · Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 562 Location: Japan

Actually, katakana is evolving, and the Japanese are starting to be able to pronounce new sounds. For instance, ヴ is a pretty new concept, and many Japanese have learned to pronounce it with a V sound rather than a B sound.

But Venti, come on. English speakers are pretty bad at pronouncing Japanese too. Of course there is the Japanese R/L issue, but I think the major area where English speakers mutilate Japanese is in intonation and vowels.

furiousmilksheikali · Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:41 am Post subject:

Yes, I'm aware that there have been innovations in katakana, but I've never really heard anyone pronounce ヴ　with a "v" unless they had learnt English first. The トゥ　combination is also supposed to be pronounced like the English word "to" but again this varies from person to person.

TokyoLiz · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 1548 Location: Tokyo, Japan

Katakana is so useful, why would you want to ditch it?

All those Chinese, Korean, Portugese, and German borrowings are written in Katakana, too, and would be otherwise inaccessible in print to Japanese and non-Japanese alike. Can you imagine trying to pronounce all those loan words the way native speakers of that language say them? Chinese, for me anyway, is way too hard. All those complex consonants that I can't find the place of articulation for.

Katakana is a necessary evil, reducing the sounds of Chinese, Korean and English, too.

And we have the http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/ipa/ipa.html - The International Phonetic Association's alphabet for the purpose. You'll see it or a British variant in your school dictionaries anyway.

Speculation about a rule as to why Japanese preserve the o in some final syllables and not others...

One teacher I talked to says that when a Japanese pronounces words distinctly and deliberately, he or she will not reduce the final syllables, and in fact を will be pronounced 'wo', the way it sounds in classical Japanese. In natural speech, these sounds get reduced a bit, but don't really disappear. He says a Tokyo speaker won't say furont for furonto - used in Japanese to mean reception desk. He's esssentially saying that the sound is never reduced completely, though the foreign listener may perceive it to be absent.

My J1 kids can produce beautifully accented English when practicing with a partner or me, reducing their sounds, but when they are asked to present to the class a passage or conversation, they katakanafy it. I'm thinking, they're being deliberate and careful and distinctly pronouncing the sounds, just as they are taught to in Japanese.

This is what an earlier poster picked up on (sorry, must read back again) - the lack of explicit instruction in the English classroom explaining that English speakers have a different perception of what constitutes a syllable.

Amongst my foreign friends, we encourage each other at sports by saying 「ファイト！」　because we think it makes us seem more something. How do you say that again in English? Oh, never mind...格好いい！