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Spanish Minister Walkout over 'Saudi sexism'
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007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject:

Cleopatra wrote:

...I'm quite sure that the authorities at Imam university would consider that the mere presence of women in the male section is culturally inappropriate.

The funny thing with the Saudi culture, vis-�-vis women is that is full of contradictions! If the authorities at Imam university would not allow the presence of a journalist woman to report on a speech by a foreign Minister, and in the same time, women journalists are allowed to attend a conference by a foreign women minister, like Condalesa Rais, shown in plain TV with the Saudi king and other ministers including the Minister of Religion, and minister of education (who is the head of Imam university!), and shaking hand with her 'Excellency', Cinderella (sorry, I mean Condalesa Rais), and she is not wearing a tall Abaya, in the contrary, she was wearing a skirt!! So, this is allowed with the high ranking Saudi officials, but not allowed in a university!!
In addition, Imam university is not a holy place, even in the Mosque, which is a holly place women are allowed to enter, with a proper dressing, and listen to the Khutba, or to report about the event, of course in a separate room.

So, this shows the 'double standards' of the Saudi culture and politics!

Quote:

In other words, I was correct in saying that mothers do not go into the male section of universities on behalf of their sons?

Yes, because they will not be allowed to enter the male section of the university. BUT, mothers use the phone to contact lecturers, HOD, or Deans, on behalf of their sons!

Stephen wrote:

There are probably occasions of a relative trying to pull wasta but that would be obviously be a male relative.

I have experience where one Amira (Saudi princess) wrote a wasta letter for one of a college student, in which she was asking the Dean of college to help the student in his final year examination marks!!!!!!

Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject:

Painfully written anecdotes about "Condalesa Rais" aside, my previous point still appears not to have been challenged: it is not the norm for women to attend functions in the male sections of Saudi universities

007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject:

Cleopatra wrote:

Painfully written anecdotes about "Condalesa Rais" aside, my previous point still appears not to have been challenged: it is not the norm for women to attend functions in the male sections of Saudi universities

Which norm? Saudi norm?
The Saudi norm is the opposite of the norm of the other side of the world!

Stephen Jones

Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject:

quote]Painfully written anecdotes about "Condalesa Rais" aside, my previous point still appears not to have been challenged: it is not the norm for women to attend functions in the male sections of Saudi universities[/quote]It is also not the norm for members of foreign governments to give lectures, and when they are it is hardly going to be unexpected that they will bring foreign journalists with them.

Quote:

Which norm? Saudi norm?
The Saudi norm is the opposite of the norm of the other side of the world!

We are talking Cleopatra's norm, which like the second law of thermodynamics brooks no non-trivial exceptions.

007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject:

The second law of Newton states that the acceleration of an object is dependent upon two variables: The net Force acting upon the object and the mass of the object. BY ANALOGY: The second law of human Logic states that the norms of any country is dependent upon two variables: Mind and Culture. If the two variables are not balanced, then you will have a non-stable situation!

Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The Saudi norm is the opposite of the norm of the other side of the world!

I do accept that English is not your first language - but the context of the very sentence you quoted makes it clear I am tallking about Saudi Arabia. As I've said, what goes on elsewhere in the world is of no relevance.

Quote:

It is also not the norm for members of foreign governments to give lectures, and when they are it is hardly going to be unexpected that they will bring foreign journalists with them.

What is your point, exactly? I already agreed with you that the Imam Uni authorities should have informed the Spaniards of their regulations, even thoughwithin the Saudi context those regulations are quite normal.

Quote:

We are talking Cleopatra's norm, which like the second law of thermodynamics brooks no non-trivial exceptions.

Like another male poster who sometimes frequents these pages, you seem to think that resorting to schoolboy 'sarcasm' and non sequiteurs covers up the fact that you have not constructed a logical argument, nor have you refuted a single one of my points. It doesn't.

Queen of Sheba

Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject:

007 wrote:

Cleopatra wrote:

Which norm? Saudi norm?
The Saudi norm is the opposite of the norm of the other side of the world!

The fact remains that Imam University is an all men's college, and has never had female students, guests or lecturers before. The Spanish knew that and so did Rice I am certain. Why should they be expected to bend this rule for Rice? In case you didn�t think this one through, 007 and Stephen Jones, this is their country. Furthermore why is it you believe everyone must bow to the ways of Bush & Co.?

From a woman's point of view, I dont support segregation of any sort, however, there are certain cultural things that should be respected, and foriegners coming into a country and expecting that things should be their way is very arrogant and insenstitive. There is such a thing as progress, and yes, that arguement can be made in the case of women and men being segregated, yet it should be done on the terms of Saudi Arabia and its people, not on anybody else's.

ALPH

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject:

Progress, Bah. What we are dealing with here is an Illness. Mountain laws about who should accompany woman where. If thats fine by you, then good luck to you. You are a woman. I know i would be outraged. I'd get myself into trouble, i would

007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject:

Queen of Sheba wrote:

... In case you didn�t think this one through, 007 and Stephen Jones, this is their country. Furthermore why is it you believe everyone must bow to the ways of Bush & Co.?

Yes, that is their country, nobody is arguing about that. The problem is that they are using double standards concerning the issue of women, especially in political sense!

In addition, I do not, and will not believe everyone must or should bow to the ways of Bush & Co., in the contrary, in SA, the leaders, who are anachronistic, are not only bowing to their master Bush & Co., they are bowing even to his shadow, because of fear for their seats!!! And this is valid for the other Gulf and some Arab countries leaders.

BTW, look to the following link http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brian_whitaker/2006/03/prince_charles_the_islamic_dis.html
Which is concerned with the speech given by the Prince Charles in Imam Muhammad bin Saud Islamic University, during his last visit to Riyadh:
�Charles told his audience: "We need to recover the depth, the subtlety, the generosity of imagination, the respect for wisdom that so marked Islam in its great ages ...
"What was so distinctive of the great ages of faith surely was that they understood, that as well as sacred texts, there is the art of interpretation of sacred texts - between the meaning of God's word for all time and its meaning for this time." �.�
��..
�In his speech, therefore, Prince Charles was seeking to defend Islam from anti-Muslim prejudice in the west and at the same time supporting Islamic reform against clerics whose mentality is frozen in backwardness.�
�His talk at the university was restricted to a carefully chosen audience of officials and politicians, without any students present. A Reuters report noted: "The Saudi university students, most of them bearded and wearing white robes and sandals, were kept from the prince by a large security deployment."

�On a lighter note, there's a picture of Prince Charles and his wife arriving at Riyadh airport that should not be missed. A reader of the Religious Policeman blog has deconstructed the scene from a fashion angle. (Scroll down to "Charles and Camilla arrive" then click on "comments"). Key points here are that Camilla is dressed in white - as far from the traditional black worn by Saudi women as you can get - and her colour co-ordination with the gentleman on the right (Prince Bandar) is remarkable, except that she is wearing the trousers and he is the one in a frock�

Quote:

.... There is such a thing as progress, and yes, that arguement can be made in the case of women and men being segregated, yet it should be done on the terms of Saudi Arabia and its people, not on anybody else's

I think, it should be done on the terms of common sense, logic, and the correct interpretation of Islamic teaching, and not on rigid tribe traditions, and mis-interpretation of Islamic teaching. 's.[/quote]

Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject:

Personally, I don't believe that any member of the Bush administration should be received in polite company, ever. Gender and clothing are the least of it.

Queen of Sheba

Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397

Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject:

ALPH wrote:

Progress, Bah. What we are dealing with here is an Illness. Mountain laws about who should accompany woman where. If thats fine by you, then good luck to you. You are a woman. I know i would be outraged. I'd get myself into trouble, i would

Are you reading the same post? I never said it was fine. I said it was wrong, of both parties, and I said it is the law of the university, and nobody should expect laws to be bent for them. I think I should be able to drive in KSA, and it�s sick and wrong to keep me from doing it, however I don�t, because it is against the law, and I did after all chose to liver here, and I should abide by their laws or leave. Just as I cannot attend or teach classes at Imam University, I cannot speak at a lecture there either. I think Rice should be held to the same standards, if not lower. Imam University is not an arm of the Saudi government, thus they do not have to bow to Bush & Co.

This situation is entirely different than the case at King Faisal Hospital a few weeks ago, when a Muslim scholar refused to speak at a lecture. This speaker accepted to speak at King Faisal Hospital in Riyadh to a mixed audience at a mixed employee hospital. He refused to speak until the women left. He was being stubborn and rude, and this was wrong and unjust of him. The case of women not being allowed on the campus of Imam University is simply because its illegal and unheard of on that campus, and whether it�s wrong or right morally to segregate people, is not what�s being discussed. I agree that this type of segregation is wrong, dehumanizing, and whatever else you want to call it, but to expect them to break their long standing laws and traditions for you, after all you are Rice and do have the power of the regional wrecking ball behind you, is arrogant, uneducated and just as rude, no matter how inhumane and backwards those traditions and laws may be. If men were really concerned about the issue of segregation, they would complain to their employers and embassies, and refuse to attend such functions. This is a fight that will not be solved by women alone.

Last edited by Queen of Sheba on Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:14 pm; edited 2 times in total

ALPH

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject:

Queen of Sheba wrote:

ALPH wrote:

....... I said it was wrong, of both parties, and I said it is the law of the university, and nobody should expect laws to be bent for them. I think I should be able to drive in KSA, and it�s sick and wrong to keep me from doing it, however I don�t, because it is against the law, and I did after all chose to liver here, and I should abide by their laws or leave. ......
This situation is entirely different than the case at King Faisal Hospital a few weeks ago, when a Muslim scholar refused to speak at a lecture. This speaker accepted to speak at King Faisal Hospital in Riyadh to a mixed audience at a mixed employee hospital. He refused to speak until the women left. He was being stubborn and rude, and this was wrong and unjust of him. ........ I agree that this type of segregation is wrong, dehumanizing, and whatever else you want to call it, ......., no matter how inhumane and backwards those traditions and laws may be. .

nopes, i was not asking them to 'break their traditions 'for me' - i am not the one whose freedom is curtailed - Tis women themselves. I was reckoning your adjectives above relative to saudi behaviour - 'sick and wrong; stubborn and rude; 'dehumanizing and whatever you want to call it'; and wondered, what are you doing in a country like this if this is your take on it. I mean why would you subject yourself to a system that is as you describe it. Perhaps you might start by relaying your feelings to that Muslim 'scholar' who refused to Speak to a room that had to empty itself of women before he spoke. Just a thought, i dont mean to argue for the hell of it; I am curious.

Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject:

Quote:

i am not the one whose freedom is curtailed -

While I agree that, on balance, women suffer more than men as a result of due Saudi gender segregation, it's worth pointing out that it cuts both ways. Had the roles been reversed, and had this been a female speaker speaking to a female audience at Imam university, there is no way male journalists would have been admitted. "Female space" is definately more off limits to men than the reverse.

Not to mention the fact that segregation does have its advantages, even, nay especially, for women. Those of us who have walked into a bank and walked straight to the top of a queue full of men can vouch for this.

Quote:

Perhaps you might start by relaying your feelings to that Muslim 'scholar' who refused to Speak to a room that had to empty itself of women before he spoke.

Surely that particular responsibility rested with the women who attended, or tried to attend, said lecture? Not one of them made a point of protesting their treatment when they might have been able to do something about it.

SCHUBERT

Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 71

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject:

so, only women 'Present' at these 'inhumane' practices should protest. And tis all about 'getting to the head of the queue' ?. Small wonder with this form of 'Not I, Lord,' they make so little progress with this form of 'injustice'

007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject:

Queen of Sheba wrote:

... Imam University is not an arm of the Saudi government, thus they do not have to bow to Bush & Co.

I think all Saudi Universities, and other organizations are not only an arm to the Saudi Government, they are as well a 'Media' and propaganda for the government.

About the roles of women in Saudi Society, read the following article:
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=saudiarabia&ID=SP142907
"In an interview with the Saudi English-language daily Arab News, Princess Adelah bint Abdallah, daughter of the Saudi king, talked about the role of women in Saudi society. She said that "Saudi women must be given the opportunity to participate in social development in all areas," and expressed her support for women's employment. At the same time, the princess stressed that traditional values must be preserved."

Quote:

This is a fight that will not be solved by women alone.

Yes, the fight for women rights in Saudi Arabia is the responsibility for all tranches of the Saudi society, women, men, journalist, Media, teachers lawyers, etc, etc.
BUT, the reality is that all the above parties of the Saudi society are strictly constrained, controlled, prosecuted, and observed by the Saudi government, and it is very difficult for Saudi society to rise up, at least to do a peaceful demonstration for a minor issue which concerns their society!!.
But, still some Saudi wonmen activist rise from time to time to speak up and rise the issue of women rights in the Saudi society. I invite you to read the following article about the Saudi Writer and Journalist Wajeha Al-Huwaider who Fights for Women's Right:

"Saudi-born writer and journalist Wajeha Al-Huwaider is one of the Arab world's most prominent campaigners for human rights, particularly women's rights. She holds an MA in Reading Management from GeorgeWashingtonUniversity. [1] In August 2003, the Saudi Interior Ministry banned her from writing in the Saudi press; since then, she has published her articles on the reformist Arabic websites, and has gained international recognition. In November 2004, Al-Huwaider was awarded the 2004 PEN/NOVIB Free Expression Award at The Haguefor her work for freedom of expression and advancement of women's rights. [2] :
"On August 4, 2006, on the occasion of the first anniversary of Saudi King Abdallah bin Abd Al-Aziz's accession to the throne, Al-Huwaider staged a public protest: She stood in the street with a sign saying "Give Women Their Rights." That same day, she was arrested briefly, and police made it clear to her that they did not agree with her self-expression. On September 20, she was summoned for additional questioning, and detained for six hours.
During questioning, the police demanded that she answer, in writing, a number of questions about articles she had published and about her human rights activism. In exchange for her release, they demanded that she sign a pledge that she would cease and desist from all her human rights activism - including writing articles, organizing protests, and maintaining contacts with foreign newspapers and organizations. Security personnel told her that if she violated this pledge, she would lose her job with Aramco. She was also not permitted to return to her home in Bahrain, and was forced to remain in Saudi Arabia. This ban was lifted on September 28."
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=saudiarabia&ID=IA31206

Cleopatra wrote:

..Surely that particular responsibility rested with the women who attended, or tried to attend, said lecture? Not one of them made a point of protesting their treatment when they might have been able to do something about it.

Saudi women cannot make, or think of making, any point of protest, because they have two types of fear, internal fear and external fear.
More clarification about the two types of fears in Saudi women, I invite you to read the following article about Saudi women:
"From what the Saudi women say, Al-Huwaider concludes that every Saudi woman has two types of fear: internal fear, which originates first and foremost in the family's or tribe's control of her, and external fear, of the control of the political, religious, and social institutions that usually work together against her. "
"Al-Huwaider writes that "Saudi women are weak, no matter how high their status, even the 'pampered' ones among them - because they have no law to protect them from attack by anyone. The oppression of women and the effacement of their selfhood is a flaw affecting most homes in Saudi Arabia. Most Saudi women, whether educated or illiterate, realize all too well that their lives are in the hands of the men. If a Saudi woman enjoys 'a life of pleasantness and well-being'... it depends completely on the good nature and good intentions of the man with whom she lives."
Al-Huwaider writes: "The reason most women who are depressed, submissive, and subject to various types of injustice accept their wretched situation is their increasing fear. The fear gnaws away at their sense of being independent entities, and harms their self confidence every day. Thus they always fail at removing the oppression. The real reason for this fear among Saudi women is that there is no law to protect them from violence and discrimination.
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=saudiarabia&ID=IA312006

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