Job Discussion Forums

guest of Japan · Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1601 Location: Japan

I teach 400 kids a week. Why the hell would I want more?

or

There are 6 billion people on this rock. Is it really fruitful for me to multiply?

or

Kids are very expensive, and I don't have a lot of money.

or

I'm still a kid myself. Take you pick as to which one is the most reasonable answer.

denise · Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 3419 Location: finally home-ish

I agree with johnslat & guest of japan.

Johnslat--I suspect that I would make a terrible parent, which is precisely why I don't plan on becoming one. Seems a bit unfair to the child to be brought into the world by someone who doesn't want it and/or doesn't know what to do with it. (Just like there's responsible parenting, there is also responsible non-parenting.)

Again, going to an extreme (and I am not including scot47 or any other parents in this--I am merely presenting an idea), sometimes childbearing/rearing is an incredibly selfish act--"I want to fashion something in my own image/My own life hasn't been satisfactory, so let me try to raise my child to have the life that I should have had so that I can live vicariously through him/her."

d

johnslat · Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:43 am Post subject: Say Uncle

Dear denise,
Good point - the vicarious " living through one's child ". And I think I can see how it might be very hard to resist. " I don't want MY son/daughter to make the same mistakes I did " or " I want my son/daughter to be the doctor/lawyer/financial success/etc. I didn't have any chance to be. ". Ah me, the many hazards and pitfalls of parenthood, not to mention the tremendous responsibilities - but then, there are also the imestimable rewards. Up to each person ( and, occasionally, God, Nature or whatever you may call it ) to choose: one or the other.
Regards,
John
P.S. I find being an uncle is hard to beat: many of the pleasures of parenthood and almost none of the responsibilities.

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

johnslat

As usual you are right, you cunning old Jesuit !

When I said "having children" I meant not just biologocal reproduction but rearing and socialising them as well.

I have a feeling that the "Bishop of Rome" might agree with me.

arioch36 · Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 3589

I would not say the urge to have sex is instinctive in humans (do humans have instincts?) rather, it is biological in basis, so can be effected by physical diet, social teaching, etc.

The "urge" to have children is a taught behaviour, or an intellectual decision, often not thought about consciously. So now in many countries (Europe, China) many people no longer "feel" a need to have many children, or they wait longer to have children, or choose to have fewer children.

Not having children, I enjoy the uncle role...except...as an uncle it is so much easier to see the unfortunate things my siblings with poorer parenting skills are doing to "mess up" my nieces and nephews. And then good old uncle John is no longer wanted by the parents. So this is hard...being an uncle is easier if your brothers and sisters are good parents Smile

I think many of us want to "leave our mark on the worls" , make things better, if only in a small way, whether trhough having children, or being a better teacher, or whatever.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

I feel a lot like Denise, but let me explain.

The desire to have children is quite concrete but tends to be latent in modern folks due to a different lifestyle in which everything, including old-age, is taken care of either by the state or by an institution. Believe me, you all would feel a lot less fulfilled and lonely if you lived a peasant's life with no wife or husband and no child of your own! You would see Nature's ever-revolving wheel turning round and round, and wonder whether your own wheel has to stop turning after your expiry. That would fill you with dread.
I have no children of my own, but my former French partner had a wonderful daughter from her first husband. I often think of mother and child although the child by now is no child anymore.
My current Chinese partner has a daughter from her first husband too. We are discussing how to split up because we are eminently incompatible. I can imagine a better life for me without the woman, but I do not want to cut my ties with her daughter who is only ten.

I do not know if I am beginning to realise how utterly useless a man in his 60's or 70's is if he is alone. Luckily, I am far away from that stage, but already I am dreading the thought of being a bachelor or divorcee all by myself in an ageing society that has been abandoned by the younger generation.

With a child of one's own - or an adopted one as in my case - you have something to look forward to rather than merely looking back on a possibly interesting younger life.

I still do not want to have a child of my own because as a wanderer myself, an eternal nomad, I do not want a child brought up in such unstable circumstances.
But I love the children that my two partners have produced. Unfortunately, my CHinese partner is a lousy mother - as so many are!
I think parenting is one of the most undereducated occupations!
People should not be allowed to raise children without having some training!!!
In my case, teaching at kindergartens may very well have been that kind of training.
I am sure I would be a reasonably good father! ANd, I have over the last few years learnt a lot about myself and about children.

Gordon · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 5309 Location: Japan

Denise said

rogan · Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 416 Location: at home, in France

As a parent, I'd say that accepting what my kids want to do, rather than what I had hoped they would do, is the biggest difficulty.

denise · Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 3419 Location: finally home-ish

Gordon · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 5309 Location: Japan

No offense taken D

You may feel differently about children later.

Wolf · Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 1245 Location: Middle Earth

Children, eh? Let's hope my family doesn't read this thread. . . .

I like my job, but I don't think I'll ever earn enough at it to support a family. Ever. Such is the reality of the world in the 21st century. Humanity will continue just fine without my theororetical progeny.

Other comments on this board have reminded me of a story.

Reminds me a bit of a story I read as a child. About a hen who wanted to make bread. She did all the work: sowed the wheat, tended it, harvested it, ground it into flour and baked it into bread. No one else on the farm would help her. When it was time to eat the bread, everyone wanted some. But as they didn't help, the hen refused to offer them any.

One can easily be a parent the way Zeus was a parent: biologically fathering/mothering children. But if you want them to be there in your old age, and if you want to take pride in their accomplishments, then I suggest to all (would be) parents that care be taken to actually raise them.

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

Arioch36 says :'The "urge" to have children is a taught behaviour, or an intellectual decision, often not thought about consciously.'

I dispute this. I think the "urge" to have children is genetic in both men and women. We may not think about it consciously but it is one of the most basic biological instincts. Fight against it if you want to, but there will be a price to pay.

Gordon · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 5309 Location: Japan

Wolf,
Why don't you think you'll ever make enough money to support a family? There's enough of us who do?

Kids don't need as much as we think they do. I think a simple life is best. Of course there are many more things I wish I could give my daughter, but love and care are the real necessities. That just involves time and energy.

Capergirl · Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:01 pm Post subject:

We're all perfect parents until we have kids of our own. Laughing

Trust me, it's easy to sit back and roll your eyes and think about how you would do everything better. Parenting is a little harder than you might think it is when you are still childless and know all the answers. Wink

Gordon, I agree with you 100%. As a single mom and ESL teacher, I can honestly say that I am not a wealthy person (and may never be one). However, my daughter is very healthy and happy, in spite of the fact that mom can't give her everything under the sun. She has what she needs and she knows she is loved. Those are the things that matter. Smile

leeroy · Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Posts: 777 Location: London UK

My father's raised eyebrowns (when I told him I'm sure-as-hell never having kids) said a lot...

Evidently there is an uncontrollable hormonal imbalance that occurs (usually) at some point in your 30s, causing an irrational desire to have offspring. I don't want to ever have it, but from what I've been told it's inevitable...

An Indonesian student was horrified when I said I never wanted kids. "Who will look after you when you're old?!" She asked, in complete disbelief. I'd never thought of kids like that before, but I suppose she had a point... (I'm 23, which (of course) means that I'll never be old.)