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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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 Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I don't think this is about "SAFEA recognized schools", but this is about schools that are legally licensed to hire foreign labor (FTs). Once the schools hire FTs, they are to provide their FTs with the SAFEA standard contract. And yes, there's a large number of FTs unaware of the SAFEA contract working under schools terms and conditions. Then, whether they are working legally or illegally that is a question. I would not say that so many are working legally as the post above.
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hairuo wrote:
Mr. Griswald, I will only work at SAFEA registered, schools, Thank you. And I, too, will only work legally in China. The longer I am here, the more it seems that SAFEA "suggestions" are ignored. I have been teaching in China more than five years and that is my observation. I am not a newby.
A reply:
It depends on where you are and what type of schools you are dealing with.
I agree with Clark that there should be a Contracts 101 thread / sticky. |
Hairuo, I agree with you there. I've also been in China for longer than 5 years. Any employers that are well registered with the Chinese government and provide those SAFEA standard contracts are often more responsible and accountable for their actions, in my opinion. To get the appropriate licensing to hire foreign labor (FTs) an employer needs to also pay to the provincial government and register with Beijing. The payment (as a deposit) is at 50,000 RMB. Employers that avoid such steps have often got issues and FTs sooner or later feel them.
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If people would not accept bad deals, the offers would improve. |
Absolutely. Bad deals are at times accepted by the ones that are not qualified to teach at all. Then, at times desperate situations require desperate measures. 
Peace to all kinds of job seekers in China or coming to China
and
cheers and beers to all hard working FTs working legally and under their reasonable deals in China 
_____________________________________________________________
SAFEA isn't any clearer than the Guangzhou skies  |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
| I don't think this is about "SAFEA recognized schools", but this is about schools that are legally licensed to hire foreign labor (FTs). Once the schools hire FTs, they are to provide their FTs with the SAFEA standard contract. And yes, there's a large number of FTs unaware of the SAFEA contract working under schools terms and conditions. Then, whether they are working legally or illegally that is a question. I would not say that so many are working legally as the post above. |
What does SAFEA have to do with entities such as Wall Street English or EF? Generally, the only time you will see the standard SAFEA contract is when you work at a public university or school. Most private entities have nothing to do with SAFEA nor are they required to, but that far from means that the staff they hire and get work visas for are not working legally. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| How many SAFEA recognized schools are there |
Lots. We have compiled an English language list of most of these but as the list changes and more schools get added and some dropped the list actually changes a bit each year.
| cj750 wrote: |
| and what are the requirements for belonging to SAFEA...is there a certification process.... |
Check out the SAFEA website as they outline the process very clearly. Each school is reviewed annually and some do get dropped for non-compliance each year so it is more than just a front.
I would think that every foreign teacher would like the idea of someone setting up minimum requirements for employers as far as their responsibilities to foreign teachers and then ensuring that these requirements are complied with. That is essentially what SAFEA does. It is not a guarantee, but it sure helps to smooth the field.
| cj750 wrote: |
| and where do you get the info that most schools that are not SAFEA recognized are employing teachers illegally.. |
To get a work permit to teach as a salaried foreign English teacher in China you need to meet certain qualifications and SAFEA schools that are offering legal employment only employ teachers for those positions that meet these requirements. So if you are working at a SAFEA recognized school and have your paperwork then you know that you are legal.
At schools outside of SAFEA you will find less certainty. We all know that many schools (and many teachers) have teachers work on F visas. I know that there is a discussion about this on another thread, but to me it is clear that an F (business visa) is not a legal alternative to the Z. Some school employ teacher on L (tourist) visas which we all know is illegal. Finallly some schools are a bit trickier and obtain legal documents for the foreigner to work in China, but unfortunately not as a teacher and certainly not at their school. This is the worst situation in my opinion as the foreign teacher would reasonably assume that he or she was fully legal when in fact he or she is not.
Is it possible that a SAFEA recognized school could employ a foreign teacher on the side on an F visa? Yes it is possible but my understanding is that if they get caught then they become one of the schools that gets dropped each year.
The point is however that if you are employed and provided all documents at a SAFEA school then you know that you are 100% legal and that is what many teacher want to ensure.
As to your question of SAFEA schools not meeting the requirements specified by SAFEA well I don't have any examples of that but that the good news is that it is a problem that is easily rectified. When working at a SAFEA school you can bring this sort of problem to the attention of SAFEA and most likely get it resolved. When working for a school outside of SAFEA you really need to do a lot more to get what you are entitled to if an employer is not forthcoming.
| Joe C. wrote: |
| What does SAFEA have to do with entities such as Wall Street English or EF? Generally, the only time you will see the standard SAFEA contract is when you work at a public university or school. Most private entities have nothing to do with SAFEA nor are they required to, but that far from means that the staff they hire and get work visas for are not working legally. |
While it is true that SAFEA is generally known for its involvement with public universities and schools, their responsibilities are certainly not limited to these schools. I assume that they are known for their involvement with public institutions because originally only public institutions were legally able to employ foreign experts as teachers. There are now many private schools that meet the SAFEA terms and therefore qualify to legally employ foreign teachers.
EF schools are registered under SAFEA under their Chinese name. I can't say that every single EF school is registered (they may be but I haven't checked) but I do know that many of them are (the ones that I have checked on). I also know that Aston and some other private training institutes including some single outfits are also registered under SAFEA. If you are concerned with the accuracy of what I am saying then why not contact SAFEA directly and find out?
I don't disagree with others that being a SAFEA school is not the holy grail of employment in China, but I think that for individuals seeking legal and 'safe' employment in China that going with a SAFEA registered school is a much better bet than going with a school that falls outside of SAFEA. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| To get a work permit to teach as a salaried foreign English teacher in China you need to meet certain qualifications and SAFEA schools that are offering legal employment only employ teachers for those positions that meet these requirements. So if you are working at a SAFEA recognized school and have your paperwork then you know that you are legal. |
There are many schools and other entities that employ FTs legally and have nothing to do with SAFEA. In short, SAFEA is an advisory agency. If one is employed and has legally obtained their work visa, then they are legal. I don't think SAFEA signifies the Holy Grail of working in China. |
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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Malsol on Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe C. wrote: |
| If one is employed and has legally obtained their work visa, then they are legal. |
They may be in the country legally but unless their documents are for them to teach English at the school that they are working for then they aren't working legally.
I would hate to be a teacher working here 'legally' only to have an issue with the school or some other legal problem, and find out that I had actually been working illegally all along as my work permit was issued on the basis of me doing work other than teaching. This is what can and does happen, so you really need to consider if it is worth the risk.
| Joe C. wrote: |
| I don't think SAFEA signifies the Holy Grail of working in China. |
Agreed. I don't think that it is either, nor is it meant to be. It is meant to be a way of protecting the interests of foreign experts who work legally within those institutions, and a way of ensuring that those institutions meet their obligations to the teacher. This is exactly what being a SAFEA recognized school does, and this is why I believe that wherever possible working for SAFEA recognized schools is in the teachers best interests. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="clark.w.griswald"]
| Joe C. wrote: |
| If one is employed and has legally obtained their work visa, then they are legal. |
They may be in the country legally but unless their documents are for them to teach English at the school that they are working for then they aren't working legally.
I would hate to be a teacher working here 'legally' only to have an issue with the school or some other legal problem, and find out that I had actually been working illegally all along as my work permit was issued on the basis of me doing work other than teaching. This is what can and does happen, so you really need to consider if it is worth the risk.
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
k. If they obtain their visa legally, then they are legal, period. If they obtained their visa by fraud, lies or deceit, then, by definition, they have not obtained their visa legally. In terms of percentages, I believe that only an extremely small percentage have obtained their work permits / visas illegally. Why dwell on insignificant numbers of people?
[quote="clark.w.griswald"][t is meant to be a way of protecting the interests of foreign experts who work legally within those institutions, and a way of ensuring that those institutions meet their obligations to the teacher. This is exactly what being a SAFEA recognized school does, and this is why I believe that wherever possible working for SAFEA recognized schools is in the teachers best interests. |
I don't believe that. SAFEA is designed, contrary to what they'd have you believe, to look out for the interests of the mostly governmental institutions that employ foreigners. I think there are a great many people on this forum with very real personal experience on exactly how SAFEA institutions can be dishonest and downright malicious. SAFEA is not synonymous with safety, fairness or integrity.
The SAFEA recognized schools you mention are, for the most part, government universities and schools. I would agree that it is good to get initial experience in China at a university and, to a limited extent we might even say in the individual's best interests, but once one has gotten a little experience in China a government school is the last place you'd want to work. Sure, it's convenient to work in a university, but IMO the disadvantages soon outweigh any possible advantages. Not only is the pay a joke, but the "ma fan" level is extremely high many times and there are often the highly politicized environments and dealing with inept FAO slimeballs and other academic retards.
In short, working at a public university or school might be good for the person coming to experience China for a year or so, but if you are in it long-term, forget it. And even short-term, there are better non-SAFEA organizations to work for if you know where to look. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Joe C. wrote: |
| If they obtain their visa legally, then they are legal, period. |
Assuming that we are both talking about the same thing � legal work status and not just visas � then I would again disagree with what I believe you are posting. Different classes of employment of foreigners have different minimum requirements, and work permit documentation is specific to one employer. Therefore if someone gets his work documents processed to work as an accountant with Siemens, then that does not entitle him to take up full time employment as an English teacher at a local school. If he or she wants to be an English teacher than he/she needs to apply for the working permission to do so.
| Joe C. wrote: |
| If they obtained their visa by fraud, lies or deceit, then, by definition, they have not obtained their visa legally. In terms of percentages, I believe that only an extremely small percentage have obtained their work permits / visas illegally. Why dwell on insignificant numbers of people? |
I am not even referring to foreigners who have obtained their documents illegally as I agree that they are a small minority.
What I am talking about are the foreigners who have been issued legal employment documents for an employer or even a line of work other than where they work. These teachers may or may not even be aware of the fact that this has been done, and that is why I referred this as being a disturbing practice. I would have total sympathy for a foreigner who did everything right as far as securing what seemed to be legal work with paperwork only to get busted for working illegally.
| Joe C. wrote: |
| I don't believe that. SAFEA is designed, contrary to what they'd have you believe, to look out for the interests of the mostly governmental institutions that employ foreigners. |
I am not going to get into an argument as to what we believe SAFEA was set up for as I was not involved in their setup and I assume that you weren�t either. It seems pretty clear to me what the purpose of SAFEA is, but I accept that you may have different views on this.
| Joe C. wrote: |
| I think there are a great many people on this forum with very real personal experience on exactly how SAFEA institutions can be dishonest and downright malicious. SAFEA is not synonymous with safety, fairness or integrity. |
I disagree on this.
I don�t doubt that there could be complaints about SAFEA institutions along the lines of large class sizes, poor cafeteria food, electricity/hot water outages, boredom, unattentive students/admin staff etc. As I have pointed out already, working at a recognized SAFEA school does not guarantee that you will enjoy your experience in China.
I have not, however, seen any teacher complaining about serious problems with current SAFEA recognized schools as far as illegal employment, lack of payment of wages, unjustified withholding of benefits etc. Importantly though is that if such experiences are had, then those individuals can defer to SAFEA for assistance. Teachers employed by schools outside of the SAFEA network don�t have that safety net.
What would be interesting would be to hear from teachers who were/are working in SAFEA recognized schools, have had serious problems, approached SAFEA, but didn�t get a reasonable resolution.
| Joe C. wrote: |
| Not only is the pay a joke, but the "ma fan" level is extremely high many times and there are often the highly politicized environments and dealing with inept FAO slimeballs and other academic retards. |
This is surely for the individual to decide. I wouldn�t go so far as to generalize that all SAFEA schools are great and I question the opposing generalization that they are automatically bad for this reason. SAFEA schools are not limited to public institutions, nor necessarily to low paying positions. However if one�s objectives are maximizing ones earnings regardless of legal work status then probably teaching privates would be the best way to go I would think. For most however I would think that working in China legally is probably one of their major concerns and SAFEA schools can be a good way of achieving this aim. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: |
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According to the good folks who reside in the SAFEA offices, in Beijing..if it is not a SAFEA registered school..they cannot legally hire foreigners.
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working at a recognized SAFEA school does not guarantee that you will enjoy your experience in China.
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China University of Agriculture has had around 10 foreigners leave since December...and they are (it seems a SAFEA school) and the exit of more than a few foreign teachers is the reason that you see the job notices being posted now.
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| Teachers employed by schools outside of the SAFEA network don�t have that safety net |
What safety net? Mediation...maybe..but how many foreigners working in China have had a meeting with SAFEA or had them offer mediation. In towns where there are no SAFEA offices..I would guess that they can rely on as you have said before..anyone who offers..but why do that when in China we have a champion of the foreign workers class..
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| What would be interesting would be to hear from teachers who were/are working in SAFEA recognized schools, have had serious problems, approached SAFEA, but didn�t get a reasonable resolution |
Or better yet..just to widen the scope..anyone who has had contact with a SAFEA office and had any help or meetings or meditations......heck..even a cup of hot water in wafer thin plastic scalding the sh*t out of your outstretched hand..any contact at all..and any outcome whatever it might be..I would love to hear that there is an agency that can and does help in these matters.. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| What I am talking about are the foreigners who have been issued legal employment documents for an employer or even a line of work other than where they work. These teachers may or may not even be aware of the fact that this has been done, and that is why I referred this as being a disturbing practice. I would have total sympathy for a foreigner who did everything right as far as securing what seemed to be legal work with paperwork only to get busted for working illegally. |
By definition, Clark, these people have not obtained their work visa legally. If you have applied for a work visa as a rocket scientist yet are teaching English, there is a problem here. If you obtained your work visa with emplyer X and are working at employer Y, there may also be a problem here.
Now, there may be very isolated issues where the employer, without the employees knowledge, has fudged the truth in the work permit / visa process. And it is likely true that this would not happen in public schools and universities. However, I would rather exercise a bit of personal caution and common sense to make sure everything was legit rather than working at a university or public school.
Whether Clark believes it or not, you can work and live legally in China and also maximize your earnings. Just not at a public institution. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| According to the good folks who reside in the SAFEA offices, in Beijing..if it is not a SAFEA registered school..they cannot legally hire foreigners. |
Not sure what you mean by this, CJ. Are you being sarcastic and implying that SAFEA staff is retarded?
There are many, many schools that are not registered with SAFEA and yet legally obtain work permits and work visas for their staff. How is this?
As the name SAFEA points out, they deal with foreign experts. This term applies to those teachers who work for mostly government institutions and, supposedly other expert technical staff who work even in foreign invested companies. There are a great many legitimate and legally employed foreign English teachers who have no FEC. Instead they have only the work permit issued by the local labor bureau. They are not legal?
Also, there was a time when foreign invested companies would go through SAFEA to get a FEC for those foreign technical and management staff working in their company. This has virtually ceased and now they jusyt go to the labor bureau and get a work permit which is used for obtaining the work visa / residence permit. They do not obtain a FEC.
For SAFEA to say these people are not hired legally is absurd. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: |
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http://www.safea.gov.cn/ is the web site..and no I am not being a smart a$$ this time...I called the office today and after being transferred to several offices..ask several questions that I already knew the general consensus (Just for my own curiosity and besides I was giving a 3 hour entrance exam and had time to kill)) and was told that only SAFEA approved schools and Univs can hire FTs legally..
I work close to their office and have been there a few times ..but have never found them to be that knowledgeable...or helpful...
check out the web site and tell me if you can find the mediation request sections and the list..the SAFEA ofc. told me they were on the page..but I have yet to find them..not doubting that they are there..but my eyes are so weak now...having had to look through the pollution that is Beijing...left coal country in the US only to be poisoned by ..you guessed it ..coal burning furnaces... |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: |
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And here we are discussing what is legal or illegal in China. Then, we are back to the point of who is working legally and who is working illegally in China. We've discussed this point a number of times on forums, and I believe that it's been said that there are some double standards on the issue of legality to work in China. It also depends on where in China you work.
According to Beijing's new government policies for foreign workers (not business people), there is a need for the Residency Permit (sticker in our passports). This permit is obtained alongside the SAFEA contract as far as I know.
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CJ wrote:
According to the good folks who reside in the SAFEA offices, in Beijing..if it is not a SAFEA registered school..they cannot legally hire foreigners.
Someone replied:
Not sure what you mean by this, CJ. Are you being sarcastic and implying that SAFEA staff is retarded? |
Nothing to do with sarcasm or any implications, but facts from the government that is trying to standardize its system.
Chinese government has been furiously writing new rules, regulations and let's say laws, and it'll take a long time for those to get everywhere in
China. Then, there is a tradition that laws are written and they come down on people who are "unwanted". Let's be aware of that!
Peace to our discussion
and
cheers and beers to our legal permits for work in China |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
| According to Beijing's new government policies for foreign workers (not business people), there is a need for the Residency Permit (sticker in our passports). This permit is obtained alongside the SAFEA contract as far as I know. |
Many people have residence permits -- obtained legally -- but do not work for SAFEA schools.
I do think we can agree that whatever standards exist and their enforcement, if any, are FUBAR. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Nothing to do with sarcasm or any implications, but facts from the government that is trying to standardize its system.
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Encontrar...likely an empty headed office worker talking through her hat
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| According to Beijing's new government policies for foreign workers (not business people), there is a need for the Residency Permit (sticker in our passports). This permit is obtained alongside the SAFEA contract as far as I know.... |
That would be a big surprise to students who also are required to have one..and to F visa holders who also have them in their passport..confusing isn't it...I have even met long term L visa holders who are married and have RPs.....
Now if you enquire with the PSB..you will likely get a "this is not possible" but every day folks defy the law of Chinese gravity when it comes to permission and the paperwork that makes it possible... |
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