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"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| What's the point in teaching EFL to the locals? |
Erm, How about I ENJOY IT?
How about they need to learn it?
It allows me to be where I want to be, it helps other people to go where they want to go.
AND I earn a decent salary...
Best,
Justin |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
Deicide posted
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| Status, Schmatus...I am concerned with the Do of being a Road Warrior; think about it. In a few short years we'll all be dead if not sooner by some accident and there is the whole world to explore and there are the many cultures and languages out there. So much knowledge, geography, culture; why given our brief lives would anyone opt to stay in the same country, always the same, boring and in my case fast turning into a Christian theocracy. |
This sounds a bit off thread  , more fit for a rant somewhere  . |
A bit off thread, yeah right; Zeus forbid that one add a little philosophical, reflective commentary that goes beyond the socio-economical level of thought... |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: |
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Deicide posted
| Quote: |
| A bit off thread, yeah right; Zeus forbid that one add a little philosophical, reflective commentary that goes beyond the socio-economical level of thought... |
How about buying a sense of humor? I might have an extra one I can loan you   !
Nah, of course you're entitled to your 'road warrior' mentality, but not everyone takes up this kind of work for that reason, i.e. impersonating a butterfly traveler. Some do, but not all. Teaching is a helping profession, and one can do that anywhere.
PS There are a lot of cliffs in the world, but that doesn't mean I want to jump off any of them.  |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
Deicide posted
| Quote: |
| A bit off thread, yeah right; Zeus forbid that one add a little philosophical, reflective commentary that goes beyond the socio-economical level of thought... |
How about buying a sense of humor? I might have an extra one I can loan you !
Nah, of course you're entitled to your 'road warrior' mentality, but not everyone takes up this kind of work for that reason, i.e. impersonating a butterfly traveler. Some do, but not all. Teaching is a helping profession, and one can do that anywhere.
PS There are a lot of cliffs in the world, but that doesn't mean I want to jump off any of them. |
Fair enough; sorry about that...almost thought you were canuck in disguise...heh |
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TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Trullinger wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What's the point in teaching EFL to the locals? |
Erm, How about I ENJOY IT?
How about they need to learn it?
It allows me to be where I want to be, it helps other people to go where they want to go.
AND I earn a decent salary...
Best,
Justin |
You misunderstood my point (and I should never post after a couple of glasses of wine!) - but I meant teaching EFL in your own country when you could most likely earn more abroad. Which, going by your location, you seem to have done...It was actually in reference to a friend of mine who teaches ESL in London and is paid poorly for long hours and has no prospect whatsoever of career progression.
For whatever reason EFL is not in general given much respect in the west and is often not accorded a teaching package on a par with what are considered more professional teachers who teach English in national curriculum schools.
Whether that is fair or not is a different question but if we are talking about the status of EFL then in English countries it definitely seems to be considered as lower than that of the more traditional subject teacher. Is this just snobbery on the part of other teachers? Maybe but for whatever reason the whole TEFL industry could do with enhancing its image. |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 668
Location: performing in a classroom near you!
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| TravellingAround wrote: |
...a friend of mine who teaches ESL in London and is paid poorly for long hours and has no prospect whatsoever of career progression.
For whatever reason EFL is not in general given much respect in the west and is often not accorded a teaching package on a par with what are considered more professional teachers who teach English in national curriculum schools. |
What do you mean by "national curriculum schools?" Do you mean public schools ("private" in UK)?
There can be a career progression, with proper salary increases if one chooses to go into admin--I've seen ads for IEP coordinators which start at $65k. But then, there's very little teaching involved. One can also specialize in CALL and earn a "respectable" living.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
Whether that is fair or not is a different question but if we are talking about the status of EFL then in English countries it definitely seems to be considered as lower than that of the more traditional subject teacher. Is this just snobbery on the part of other teachers? Maybe but for whatever reason the whole TEFL industry could do with enhancing its image. |
True, our profession has a way to go before it's recognized as a "respectable" one...
In the US, ESL is on par with Special Ed. Why the two most difficult subject areas to teach are looked upon as having the lowest status, I'll never know.
I guess most people would rather not think about everything that goes on in ESL /Sp. Ed. classrooms. In public schools, other "real" teachers send their kids to the lesser-paid, marginalized teachers and expect us to "fix them." Then if we don't work miracles (i.e. an 18 year-old student with no English skills becomes fluent in 9 weeks), we're not doing our job.
THIS is why I'm in higher ed. We're not exactly afforded the same benefits as professors, but we get decent pay, terrific benefits, and tremendous job satisfaction. |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Jizzo T. Clown wrote: |
| TravellingAround wrote: |
...a friend of mine who teaches ESL in London and is paid poorly for long hours and has no prospect whatsoever of career progression.
For whatever reason EFL is not in general given much respect in the west and is often not accorded a teaching package on a par with what are considered more professional teachers who teach English in national curriculum schools. |
What do you mean by "national curriculum schools?" Do you mean public schools ("private" in UK)?
There can be a career progression, with proper salary increases if one chooses to go into admin--I've seen ads for IEP coordinators which start at $65k. But then, there's very little teaching involved. One can also specialize in CALL and earn a "respectable" living.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
Whether that is fair or not is a different question but if we are talking about the status of EFL then in English countries it definitely seems to be considered as lower than that of the more traditional subject teacher. Is this just snobbery on the part of other teachers? Maybe but for whatever reason the whole TEFL industry could do with enhancing its image. |
True, our profession has a way to go before it's recognized as a "respectable" one...
In the US, ESL is on par with Special Ed. Why the two most difficult subject areas to teach are looked upon as having the lowest status, I'll never know.
I guess most people would rather not think about everything that goes on in ESL /Sp. Ed. classrooms. In public schools, other "real" teachers send their kids to the lesser-paid, marginalized teachers and expect us to "fix them." Then if we don't work miracles (i.e. an 18 year-old student with no English skills becomes fluent in 9 weeks), we're not doing our job.
THIS is why I'm in higher ed. We're not exactly afforded the same benefits as professors, but we get decent pay, terrific benefits, and tremendous job satisfaction. |
Jizzo...your name is so...uhm...porn-like. Couldn't you call yourself something else? |
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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Deicide wrote: |
| Jizzo...your name is so...uhm...porn-like. Couldn't you call yourself something else? |
Did you really have to quote 20-some lines of his post just to tell him that? |
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TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Jizzo T. Clown wrote: |
| TravellingAround wrote: |
...a friend of mine who teaches ESL in London and is paid poorly for long hours and has no prospect whatsoever of career progression.
For whatever reason EFL is not in general given much respect in the west and is often not accorded a teaching package on a par with what are considered more professional teachers who teach English in national curriculum schools. |
What do you mean by "national curriculum schools?" Do you mean public schools ("private" in UK)?
There can be a career progression, with proper salary increases if one chooses to go into admin--I've seen ads for IEP coordinators which start at $65k. But then, there's very little teaching involved. One can also specialize in CALL and earn a "respectable" living. |
I think we are talking about different things. I'm not talking about teaching ESL in schools with a good package that other teachers get. I'm talking about teaching it in a training centre by the hour without all the benefits which is the case for many ESL teachers. Then again it's hardly just in their country they may have to cope with it. If you are qualified to teach in schools/universities then that is a different proposition to just having a BA or whatever and doing a quick 4-week course.
The original post I made wasn't supposed to be offensive to those who choose ESL as a career in their home country but it came out that way. In fact I'll delete it. |
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helmsman
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 58
Location: GCC
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Deicide wrote: |
| helmsman wrote: |
| In the GCC (Arabian Gulf) countries it is certainly not marginalized. EFL instructors working in higher education are amongst the best paid in the world and have a fairly high position on the social totem pole. Here I socialize with expat businessmen, engineers, military advisors, doctors, etc. Unfortunately contact with the locals is quite difficult, as at least in the UAE, they are quite religious, traditional and insular. Education here is taken seriously by the government. As for the unqualified backpacker type of teacher, the market for them is quite limited. Now the behavior of the students is another story. |
I am sure that is all true; all at the price of living in a culture that holds precepts that would make a 14th century inquistor weep for joy; decapitating people? Murdering people for apostasy? Honour killings? I don't care how much money can be made in the Gulf States, I would never sacrifice my moral and ethical precepts to work in such a barbaric society...  |
This post betrays a few stereotypes that need smashing. While outwardly similar in that they are autocratic, traditional and Islamic, there are major differences between them all. As for the UAE, the execution method of choice is the firing squad and it is very rarely carried out. Sure, I could tell about drastic sentences for �crimes� like adultery or slandering the Quran, but for the average person this is far removed from their life. Interestingly, a blind eye is usually turned when non-believers commit these offences, or a lighter penalty given. Seeing what I have seen has definitely not made me undergo a conversion.
The way I see it, by being here we are changing the culture gradually by exposing the locals to modern Western ways of thinking. You can�t change a culture overnight so we have to be patient.
Using the poster's logic, we should not work in Spain because they torture and kill livestock for entertainment, should not work in Korea because they torture dogs and eat them, we should not work in Russia because they gun down dissidents. � You get my drift. We are not mercenaries or prostitutes � more like language missionaries, I�d say. 
Anyway, as for the general argument here, I think we, as professionals need to push for higher qualifications in order to teach. It is sad that, as people say, EFL/ESL is given a somewhat low status in our home countries. I am in the GCC because my home countiry is flooded with English teachers and as a result the plum jobs are few and far between. In the meantime I�ll stashing away my loot in the Arabian sun -- guiltlessly. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Yes, this is a problem in Western countries, they regulate ESL time wise and budget wise as something extra, rather than realizing that to make new arrivals more comfortable and productive within the society, this language education is essential (then again, Japan hardly does a great job either, so it not just the West that has a problem with this).
| Quote: |
| The way I see it, by being here we are changing the culture gradually by exposing the locals to modern Western ways of thinking. You can�t change a culture overnight so we have to be patient. |
It's true, and I'm not even sure that we should change it, though obviously in some cases it might prolong your life if you end up on the wrong end of the law!  |
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zorro (3)
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: |
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The way I see it, by being here we are changing the culture gradually by exposing the locals to modern Western ways of thinking. You can�t change a culture overnight so we have to be patient.
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This is very culturally imperialist don't you think? I'm sure the people in the country that you are in are very proud of their culture. Or is their culture sub standard?
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We are not mercenaries or prostitutes � more like language missionaries, I�d say.
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Language missionaries conjures up images of colonialisation. There has surely got to be a better reason to teach English other than to 'enlighten' the savages? |
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cangringo
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 327
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Wow that post did sound rather missionary like didn't it?? I wouldn't want to do a culture overhaul, however some education doesn't hurt. It's not a bad thing to stop the needless torture and destruction of animals - I am an animal lover.
I know in Mexico, while they still have traditional bullfighting which I find cruel and uneccessary - a lot of the locals don't like it and find it the same. It's not necessary to change the culture but a little bit of enlightenment on certain matters is a good thing.
What's funny (well we thought it was) is there are some missionaries that take Spanish classes at our school and they refuse to use their heaters in the coldest weather because they want to live like the poor people around them but they use their laptops...does this strike anyone else as contradictory?? |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| helmsman wrote: |
| Deicide wrote: |
| helmsman wrote: |
| In the GCC (Arabian Gulf) countries it is certainly not marginalized. EFL instructors working in higher education are amongst the best paid in the world and have a fairly high position on the social totem pole. Here I socialize with expat businessmen, engineers, military advisors, doctors, etc. Unfortunately contact with the locals is quite difficult, as at least in the UAE, they are quite religious, traditional and insular. Education here is taken seriously by the government. As for the unqualified backpacker type of teacher, the market for them is quite limited. Now the behavior of the students is another story. |
I am sure that is all true; all at the price of living in a culture that holds precepts that would make a 14th century inquistor weep for joy; decapitating people? Murdering people for apostasy? Honour killings? I don't care how much money can be made in the Gulf States, I would never sacrifice my moral and ethical precepts to work in such a barbaric society... |
This post betrays a few stereotypes that need smashing. While outwardly similar in that they are autocratic, traditional and Islamic, there are major differences between them all. As for the UAE, the execution method of choice is the firing squad and it is very rarely carried out. Sure, I could tell about drastic sentences for �crimes� like adultery or slandering the Quran, but for the average person this is far removed from their life. Interestingly, a blind eye is usually turned when non-believers commit these offences, or a lighter penalty given. Seeing what I have seen has definitely not made me undergo a conversion.
The way I see it, by being here we are changing the culture gradually by exposing the locals to modern Western ways of thinking. You can�t change a culture overnight so we have to be patient.
Using the poster's logic, we should not work in Spain because they torture and kill livestock for entertainment, should not work in Korea because they torture dogs and eat them, we should not work in Russia because they gun down dissidents. � You get my drift. We are not mercenaries or prostitutes � more like language missionaries, I�d say.
Anyway, as for the general argument here, I think we, as professionals need to push for higher qualifications in order to teach. It is sad that, as people say, EFL/ESL is given a somewhat low status in our home countries. I am in the GCC because my home countiry is flooded with English teachers and as a result the plum jobs are few and far between. In the meantime I�ll stashing away my loot in the Arabian sun -- guiltlessly. |
Apples and Oranges g-money, apples and oranges... |
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