|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| womblingfree wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
| Students need to understand that "l" and "r" are basic contrastive phonemes in English and they need to understand the phonetic differences between them. |
Any educated English student knows this, they just can't pronounce them easily.
The exercises you describe to change pronunciation would be more at home with a child suffering from a speech disorder rather than a language learner. We're teachers not speech therapists!!
Like I said the infatuation with pronouncing English words like a 'native' can lead to all sorts of problems and, in the case of Korea, actual physical mutilation. If you were teaching Indian students in a call centre then perhaps mimicing a native speaker would be of benefit. But most people use English to cross international boundaries not simply to talk to Westerners.
This whole discussion shows the importance of needs assessment and individual learning plans for students and not the battery hen syndrome that goes on in conversation classes. As for business English 
Don't become victim of a native speaker fallacy, the vast majority of the worlds English teachers are non-native speakers with differing pronunciations. The vast majority of English language teachers around the world are not native speakers and in many, many cases are all the better for it. |
Again, I'm not a victim of the native speaker fallacy. It's not that I don't understand your point, it's that I disagree with your point. Everyone is aware of the l/r thing in Japan, but that doesn't make Japanese English easy to understand. The lack of an l/r distinction makes it difficult for many people, not just native speakers, to understand Japanese English.
I think that in order to be comprehensible to large numbers of the world's English speakers (both native and non-native), you have to respect the phonemic distinctions in English. You don't have to say "boat" the same way that I do, but if you say "boat" and "bought" and "hot" with the same vowel, you'll probably cause some confusion. If that's your only phonemic variation, then it'd probably be fine, but if it's one of many, you'll render yourself incomprehensible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have to agree with Mark and say that English spoken using only the phonemes in Japanese and the same rhythm of speech and in katakana English is not only difficult for native English speakers to understand but also for the vast majority of those non-natie speakers of English.
I don't mean that variation should be or could be stamped out, I just think it is worth teaching an English which students can freely communicate in. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| womblingfree wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
| I'm familiar with Jenkins' work and I basically agree with her premise. But, IIRC, she does say that consonant distinctions are very important for comprehensible speech. I would argue that an "l" and "r" distinction is important for comprehensible speech, particularly in the case of Japanese English... |
Differentiation between /L/ and /r/ is particularly unimportant in the case of Japanese English as absolutely everyone on earth is aware of it!
What researchers like Jenkins clearly agree on is that not giving non-native speakers the respect accorded to native speakers when it comes to differentiation in language is prejudicial. Speaking with a thick dialect is differentiation, speaking in a foreign accent is a 'mistake.' Very wrong.
Not that anything goes obviously, but when there are quantifiable patterns common to the vast majority of a particular speech community labeling them all as 'deficient' and 'in need of correction' is absurd.
| Mark wrote: |
| Haven't you ever watched Japanese speakers try to communicate in katakana English? Other people (not just native English speakers) can't understand them. That's the basic problem. |
That's the problem of the person who hasn't learnt Japanese in order to speak with groups of Japanese people. |
As I said, the fact that people are aware of the l/r "problem" doesn't that it doesn't cause communication problems.
<<<That's the problem of the person who hasn't learnt Japanese in order to speak with groups of Japanese people.>>>
This, I think, is a silly comment. We're talking about English as an International Language, right? I'm saying that katakana English is unacceptable because it is not easily comprehensible to other English speakers. You're saying that we have to accept linguistic diversity.
We're also talking about Japanese who have learned English and are trying to use it in some situation for international communication. Many Japanese speakers are not easily understood by people from other countries.
I assume you're talking about people who live in Japan and want to speak to people who don't speak English. That is a different topic and is basically common sense. If you want to live in Mongolia and hang out with Mongolians, then you should probably learn Mongolian. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| womblingfree wrote: |
The exercises you describe to change pronunciation would be more at home with a child suffering from a speech disorder rather than a language learner. We're teachers not speech therapists!!
|
Well, maybe we should have some training in speech therapy and accent reduction. There are plenty of dialect coaches and speech therapists in the world who are good at teaching people to radically change their pronunciation.
I believe that a language teacher needs more than a knowledge of classroom methodology.
Would you take lessons from a violin teacher who had a good knowledge of how to motivate students and make them feel comfortable and which kinds musical activities were beneficial and whatnot, but they had no technical knowledge of music and they couldn't explain to you how you should hold the bow or how you should move your fingers?
This lack of technical linguistic understand is a weakness in the ESOL community, I believe. You can see it in the phonetic explanations in a lot of books out there. The explanations are difficult to understand and difficult to follow.
I can tell you from personal experience: I've explained the technical difference between l and r to high school students. I explain, do a few exercises to illustrate the differences, and they get it. The thing is that you really need to do it one on one or at least in small groups. You need to listen to them and guide them as they're developing an understanding and awareness of the difference.
Again, nobody's saying that learners should impersonate native speakers. Not only is not not necessary, it's not possible. But pronouncing "love" and "rub" the same is simply not acceptable if you want people to be able to understand you without great difficulty.
"ah-ee rabu panda" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SeasonedVet
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thank You Mark and Markle, I was confusing written and spoken language/vocab etc as you both pointed out. I stand Corrected. Sorry old man, or should I say old men.
Chip Chipper and all that stuff you know. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SeasonedVet
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| What happens if not everyone in the world listening to students from the school of diversity didn't understand words like "bumbaklaat"? |
well I never ...  Such language.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
wombling posted
| Quote: |
| Differentiation between /L/ and /r/ is particularly unimportant in the case of Japanese English as absolutely everyone on earth is aware of it! |
Got news for you, not everyone is. But even if they are, it still takes some work to understand it consistently.
wombling wrote
| Quote: |
| Not that anything goes obviously, but when there are quantifiable patterns common to the vast majority of a particular speech community labeling them all as 'deficient' and 'in need of correction' is absurd. |
mark replied
| Quote: |
| Haven't you ever watched Japanese speakers try to communicate in katakana English? Other people (not just native English speakers) can't understand them. That's the basic problem. |
wombling's reply
| Quote: |
| That's the problem of the person who hasn't learnt Japanese in order to speak with groups of Japanese people. |
Sorry wombling I agree with mark, learning Japanese is not the issue here. If that was needed for every time we wished to speak English to a differnet group of speakers, what are we to do at an international conference with French, Thai, Hindi, Chinese, Spanish, etc speakers at it? Are we to learn all these langauges and be able to recognize the accents that come with them? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chirp
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 148
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
My JTE is rubbing his back. I ask: "Does your back hurt?".
He says: "Yes. It's because I am a dirty old man."
I can only hope he was using the expression incorrectly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
