Job Discussion Forums

[winterlynx1]

There has been a lot of discussion in this and other forums about the necessity of academic qualifications (university degrees, specifically) in the foreign English teacher. This question becomes especially poignant when government offices require such qualiciation for work permits.

I don't agree that university level academic qualifications for foreign English teachers should be mandatory, because academic qualifications can be provided more efficiently by native speaking teachers.

Our discussions generally don't mention the second teacher in many of our classrooms - the bilingual Chinese English teacher. We call these "CETs" in our school. Our CETs have language degrees or Education degrees and are fluent in both languages. In our particular case, they are expert in both language and education - you'd be very hard pressed to say that these professionals are not qualified language teachers, and they are in fact the teachers who lead the educational program.

The foreign English teacher (FET), who may or may not be academically qualified, provides the L1 language. They function like a teacher's aid - mind you a very well used and talkative teacher's aid!

I argue that, with CETs who are academically language and education qualified, it is redundant to REQUIRE the FET to be likewise qualified. It's paying twice for the same thing. These academic skills come with the CET for a much lower fee, and provide a culturally atuned education leader in the same person.

So, while I certainly appreciate academic qualifications in the FET (and I have them myself), I don't agree that the FET is the only individual who can provide those qualifications. I don't agree that academic qualifications should be mandated in foreign English teachers where those same qualifications can be provided by the CET at a much lower price. This requirement places an unnecessary financial burden on the TESOL educational system.

[vikdk]

[winterlynx1]

[Steppenwolf]

I have to beefs with your argument:
The first concerns your use of "academically qualified"; you went on to say that being a monolingual English speaker is in and of itself an "academic qualification" (by implication). What nonsense!

Your second claim is that your local teacher has enough pedagogical skills and interlinguistic expertise to act as a bridge between you and your students.
The first thing that jumps into my mind is: can't you see that if these Chinese teachers are so expert at both languages you are virtually superfluous?
You should not need a local teacher to "assist" you, and if you do, then why are you in that classroom in the first place?

I know the arguments in favour of retaining your kind of "services" but I consider people who can't do their job on their own as a wasteful investment. And surely your Chinese students and employers would consider this in the same dim light?

Don't bring up that old fairytale of "native speaker competence, proper use of slang and idioms" and whatnot as justification for what could be seen as a Chinese affirmative action towards travelling English speakers; our students don't need such fluff and can hardly benefit from such luxury.

You ought to find a more legitimate reason in your endeavours to convince everyone that you and people of similar outlooks are a worthwhile asset to Chinese employers!

[orangiey]

Personally, anyone who is serious about teaching should have as a minimum a teaching/TEFL certificate.
This is the 'vocational' training on how to teach whereas a degree teaches/prepares you with what for the classroom?
I work with a few FT's with drgrees who have , to be honest, not a bloody clue...........I have a CELTA and no degree and think I am better prepared for the classroom in my approach/knowledge of my subject as I spent the time to get certified to prove it.

The only thing to outshine this preparation would be in English Language/teaching, then I say 'okay, you win', but then again does an English degree give you chance to stand up in front of a class and be able to teach? Perhaps the only degree suitable is the teaching degree with practical experience. After all a dentist can't be a dentist with an English degree...............

[Malsol]

[erinyes]

you have a CET in your classroom? I have only ever had that at a summer camp, and when they decide to have a look. no one helps me. I like it that way.

I have a degree. A real teaching degree and everything. But I know others who have a fake ones. They are better than some I have met with a real science or Arts degree. What the heck would a science degree do to help someone be a good teacher?

I say if the gov is asking for degrees but not checking if they are real or not then that's their problem.

My advice... fake it till you make it.

[Yu]

I work in a university.
I think this is an interesting question about the degree situation.

I guess some distinction would be a good thing.

For example some jobs require a native speaker.

Some jobs require a native speaker with a BA, preferably in a foreign language, English, or educaiton.

Some jobs require a native speaker with MA, preferable in English, Education, or TESOL.

Some jobs require a PHD

And that the pay related to your experience and your degree. This way when you are looking for a job, you can locate a school that appreciates your qualifications and is willing to pay for your qualifications. But what I hate is when people less qualified than me make the same amount of money for less work. Or even more money than me.

But schools also need to recognize that qualfications can pay off. You can get someone in the classroom who can really teach the students. Or you can get a monkey to keep people happy.

[Malsol]

[laodeng]

I'm beginning to think that winterlynx1 is having a unique experience in China. My not inconsiderable experience is that Chinese teachers of English are, in general, neither competent in the subtleties of English (including grammar--a common misconception!) nor are they competent pedagogues. The few I've met who do have these competencies are certainly not working as teachers aides. Rather, they hold professorships. Enjoy your experience, winterlynx1!

[orangiey]

Also Chinese teachers of English have no 'cultural awareness' or understanding of the differences between English speakers from around the world. I bet none have left China, and some not even their own province. Perhaps they think we all eat MacDonalds 24/7 and 'The English' all like football and David Beckham!!!
One co-teacher I know said very strongly that she didn't know of any housewife that would ever consider reading!!! (It was in a school text book about what housewives did and she told the kids it was wrong!!)
Whilst they can teach grammar, surely that is not the whole language learning experience, what about sounding like a native speaker!??

[TravellingAround]

[vikdk]

[nickpellatt]

An interesting thread, and one I want to post in as a non degree holder.

About me? I have held a wish to be a teacher for some time, but never went to Uni, and I left school with average qualifications and went pretty much straight out to work....

About 7 years ago I saw lots of UK adverts for teaching, went to my sons school and met his headmistress who told me schools were crying out for people like me and I would be a highly desirable candidate in that I was
a)a man wishing to teach at primary level, and
b)experienced in other fields and not straight out of Uni...

As long as I had a degree......hmmm. Now If I was to teach A level math I can see a need to be proficient at math.....but to teach at primary level, I feel a vocational skill and an aptitude is more important.

Ive never had the chance to teach, and getting a degree has been hard for a variety of reason...so I had given up until I went on my belated gap year in 2006 at 37 years old.

Whilst in Kenya, many of my peers really encouraged me, especially the UK qualified teachers I worked with, as they loved my classroom manner.....and I was then fortunate enough to have 3 months in China teaching English.

I was there with 2 UK qualified teachers, 6 uni graduates, and I was easily the worst qualified by a country mile! But guess who made the best of it and has been invited back???

In my mind, unless you are teaching a specialist subject at a very high level, a degree is worthless, as a good teacher is a good motivator, speaker, is passionate, funny, warm and encouraging....and a uni degree is no guarantee of any of these things....

We can all remember UK teachers we have had...who were not great teachers....I certainly can.....they may have been academic, but they couldnt teach.

Im trying to get a degree now, I have just started an OU course, but it may be up to 6 years before I can get the degree.......I just hope I can keep having the chance to do EFL in that time, with employers and students who will judge me according to ability rather than qualifications.

And I have to say...and you can flame me for this if needs be.....some of the young people leaving Uni with degree's these days are shockingly un-educated! I have a lot of experience of working with newly qualified grads, who I am sure would struggle to pass the CSE exams I had to sit some 20 years ago!

[no_exit]

I don't think the qualifications (or lack thereof) of Chinese teachers is the point, nor should we use the argument "well, they're educated so I don't have to be," or by the same token "well, they're not educated so I should be."

Just think for the moment about the absurdity of being a university level teacher without a university degree yourself.

"This is China" isn't a good argument. If you want to teach others, you need to be educated yourself. Being white isn't good enough. Being a native speaker of English isn't good enough, no matter what you might get told by Chinese people who are just looking for someone, anyone, with whom to practice their English. If you actually want to be a teacher, there's no excuse for not having at least some basic qualifications. If you're happy being an entertainer, a white monkey, or a conversation partner, then that's a different story.

It is funny to see posts like this juxtaposed against the very frequent salary arguments that often come up on these boards. When there are people here who honestly think that degrees shouldn't be required in order to teach English, then is it any wonder that pay rates in China are so low?[/i]