Job Discussion Forums

[StayingPower]

I talked to a Chinese man the other night who'd said something poignant. His comments ranged from seeking compensation for mental-socio factors related to HESS's dismissing one without justifiable reasons, to consulting the labor department over here for reimbursement. Fact of the matter was, he saw something apparent.

There IS some kind of compensation Taiwanese do seek over here when employers are abusing the laws. So can we. Moreover, he'd mentioned the word "suing."

I'd never looked at this word squarely before, but now ponder. Mental damages inflicted on employees by unjust employers can be devastating. I'd heard of one man in Korea, languished in hell for years, sank into alcoholism, depression, because he was one who at the hands of a corrupt employer wouldn't buckle to his dishonest demands. In the end, he'd gotten millions for his pain.

I'm not complaining, whining, weeping or depressed. But if I go back to the states, one thing I may do is 'seek compensation.' I don't say this maliciously or blindly. I think, however, HESS has gone beyond its bounds and I aim to find out.

[dangerousapple]

Are you sure you would have any reason to sue? If you were in a probationary period, you could have been let go for any reason, even if you didn't agree with it...and you could have walked away from it all as well. It seems from your other posts that you did not click with the school...at all...right from the very start. My uninformed guess is that they were as unsatisfied with you as you were with them, and they just moved first.

For the sake of your sanity...and your bank account...let it go. You had a bad experience, but you learned a lot about how life works sometimes, and you'll be that much more prepared for next time.

[blateson]

Plausible or at least worthy of discussion. The school obviously does not follow the letter of the law in some respects, they violate ethics in other ways; furthermore is the personal treatment. At least bringing things to "attention" isn't a bad idea at all. If the poster or anyone for that matter was personally or professionally done wrong then they should not have to sit and accept their treatment. This is the esl business, a world in which negotiations and reasonableness are important when foreigners take the risk of signing on with them and handing over their passports/agreeing to exclusive visas in a legal system which is designed so that employees of all schools should be allowed to work more freely. Besides headaches there are pitfalls and dangers and the school isn't free from criticism nor challenge.

[Serious_Fun]

[clark.w.griswald]

Not sure who you spoke to but you were misled.

Taiwan, unlike the US, does not recognize punitive damages of the type that I believe you are suggesting you would sue for.

In a legitimate case where you could prove actual costs and a breach of contract then the labor department can make a judgement that the employer needs to pay to you what is reasonably owing, but there would be no punitive damage component so at the most you would get out of pocket expenses.

Personally I like that as I would hate to live in a litigious society where every one sues everyone else over nothing.

[TaoyuanSteve]

I don't fully agree with the notion that punitive damages are not recognized here. Or at least I disagree with the notion that one could not extract damages, over and above out of pocket expenses, from someone who had wronged you here. It's been my experience that you are more likely to receive monetary compensation than any other form of redress. I have had experience with the court system here. The usual procedure is both parties go to a hearing where they present their cases. They are then given the chance to settle their matters without it going any further. In my own case, I asked for money and simply threw out a figure. The defendents balked at it originally because I had asked for more than I was out of pocket. The judge hinted that things would not go well for the defendents if the case proceeded, that what I asked for was reasonable and that they should accept the offer to settle. They did and, in a manner of speaking, I received punitive damges-- or at the very least, a bribe to get me to drop the criminal case.

This shouldn't give OP too much hope though. In my case, laws were clearly broken and the evidence was clear. I'm not sure what, if any, laws are broken when an employer rescinds a job offer in the first month of a contract-- otherwise known as the probationary period.

If OP thinks he has a case and has sought legal advice, well, he seems determined to seek compensation. I can only wish him well if he is that determined.

On the other hand, experience has taught me that in matters like this, it's best to let it go and move on. So Hess wasn't a good match. It wouldn't be the first time they haven't suited a particular teacher, or vice versa. I think pursuing the matter will accomplish very little. It will take a lot of time-- time you may not have anyway if you are going back to the states-- as most court cases in most countries do. Before you do anything, you must be clear on what law exactly was broken and that it, indeed, was broken.

Get good advice before you attempt anything. You will need to talk to the council of labour affairs and you will need to file your complaint with the authorities to proceed.

Isuggest, though, that even if you have a case (and I don't think you do), it's hardly worth pursuing. TEFL jobs are everywhere here. Just move on and forget Hess.

[StayingPower]

I see, and this may be like beating a dead buxiban. But my inclination is to see if there're any stipulations in our laws back home that require foreign firms from not abusing citizens of another country's rights 'if they're hiring in those countries.'

Something seems amiss about Hess's hiring procedures, and the lack of information given the employee, stuff which goes beyond the contract(That is, when you get here.) We all know what these are. But my main objective is just to look into this, since a lot of cash was thrown out the window by their termination, and I think others should be alerted.

I think that in hiring in my country, it'd be interesting to find out the intricate web HESS is creating as traps for U.S. citizens whom are actually required to work illegally(You don't get your ARC right off the bat when you work at HESS.) We know a lot do this here though, if not all. But actually, this may be illegal for a company to impose on other countries' citizens(Why then, don't they use recruiters calling from Taiwan?)

This is just the surface of things. I'd like to know if their types of contracts are really legal to proffer to US citizens, since they in turn undermine some facets of legal hiring procedures back in the states.

What's more, there's a lot of foolhardiness involved in working for them which is based on a sort of coercive confucianist conception that is belittling a lot of human rights, ie, AIDs tests we had to pay, syphillis; we had tb chest x-rays, which are deficient nowadays, or unecessary; doctors were required to sign everything in blue ink etc.

That being said, I'm newly returned from HK and turning over a new leaf and really think "they couldn't pay me enough" anyways.

[mizzo]

you have to be careful about what you contribute to HESS and what is just Taiwan immigration. The medical tests, for example, you need to have done to get your ARC. That is Taiwan immigration, not HESS. I'm pretty sure other countries - if not all countries - require medical tests before granting resident status.

[CWanders]

I'll preface this by saying that I am not yet in Taiwan. However, I do currently work for a US immigration firm and am in a pretty good position to compare the two countries' immigration processes.

[quote="StayingPower"] What's more, there's a lot of foolhardiness involved in working for them which is based on a sort of coercive confucianist conception that is belittling a lot of human rights, ie, AIDs tests we had to pay, syphillis; we had tb chest x-rays, which are deficient nowadays, or unecessary; doctors were required to sign everything in blue ink etc.[quote="StayingPower"]

Although the US does not require a medical exam for its short-term work visas (H-1B, L-1, TN), it does require a full medical exam (including an HIV test) for any foreign national who applies to become a "Permanent Resident." US immigration law stipulates that the physician sign a specific form, affix a passport style photograph, and place the form in a sealed signed envelope. Not exactly a more streamlined process than Taiwan's.

As for starting work prior to receiving your ARC, US immigration law stipulates that a foreign national can begin work as soon as their company's petition on their behalf is filed. Many of the foreign nationals whose cases I handle start work months before they receive their approval notice from USCIS. Although Hess's training probably occurs before your ARC paperwork is filed, I'm under the impression that by the time you start work everything should be filed. Again, the Taiwanese procedure is not that much more nonsensical than the U.S.'s.

Immigration and work authorization are messy wherever you go. Would it be great and super-generous of Hess to cover your medical exam fees and visitor visa application fee? Yes. But, would it be a sound investment on their part? No, because teachers don't always work out, as you demonstrate.

Again, if you gave more specifics about what happened and generally sounded less histrionic, I'd view your assertions as more credible.

[TaoyuanSteve]

Good to hear you've turned over a new leaf, Stayingpower. As you have completed a visa trip and seem determined to stick it out, your screen name is becoming more and more appropriate.

I think if you want to seek redress in the United States for Hess' recruiting there, you'd have to be in the states and contact a lawyer there. It doesn't seem you will be in the states anytime soon, so it doesn't seem realistic for you to take this route.

Anyway, I suspect that the people who'd most likely be your only tangible target in any suit would be the agents for Hess in the US and not Hess themselves. You'd only be going after former teacher s and potentially hurting people like yourself as opposed to taking on the machine like you seem to want to. My hypothesis about any end result would be this: Hess recruiters are recruiting for jobs in foreign countries. Accepting a job in another country makes you subject to that country's employment laws. The US laws have no jurisdiction over another country's employment standards. A contract signed for employment in another country is only valid and enforceable in the jurisdiction for which it is intended.

Just my guess, Stayingpower, but I don't think going after Hess will get you anything.

[blateson]

"I am afraid I don't get this. Every single foreign teacher in Taiwan chose to come here and as such we need to accept responsibility" -- griswald


Well essentially Hess at my branch has been guilty of poor and rude treatment of the foreign teacher, as the OP has brought up. If you want to split hairs that's fine, not me though..

The Chinese Teachers (CT) barge in on your lesson, insult you or your teaching, standing and staring on the side, you have no recourse and are not able to do the same to them in their high and mighty positions. Bringing it to the attention of those "above" or having a meeting called to address it leads to more headaches at which time said managers look for more ways to criticize you while validating almost nothing you bring up. CTs go behind your back, in the middle of your class and gossip about you right outside the window -- complain about you to your own foreign head teacher who will sell you out. This is all considered normal protocol. Like some sort of wave, other CTs act differently to you because of it. You're locked with no sense of balance.

This is why I made the point that esl teaching has to be a free-market concept where a school cannot own you and decide your existence. This school does not practice freedom, and perhaps "mutual respect", apparently. That's one of the points I am agreeing on with the OP.

[blateson]

"These days you can have more than one employer in Taiwan legally" -- griswald

Not with HESS, unless I'm missing something? As in "No, you cannot work for anyone else, only us." But you're right, from what is said, per Taiwan law you ARE allowed a way to have more than one valid / legal employer and work permit(s), except of course "you-know-who"?

"If Hess chooses to insist that their teachers remain exclusive {to HESS} and this is outlined in the contract that the teacher signs agreement to then I fail to see the problem." -- clark

maybe some tricky wording there but anyways I can clearly see the problem. Among them, a government rightfully guarantees you some basic freedom and a little mobility, but a company decides to override the governmental law by getting your name on a piece of paper with an absolute promise at the very beginning of the relationship before you know how things will be, rather than ongoing negotiations, such as retaining you through better salary, conditions, or attractive remunerations.

This may also be in line with what the OP is mentioning.

[thewileycoyote]

How is that any different then North America? If you got caught working at a competitor most companies would give you a warning to quit your other job and fire you if you didn't or they would just fire you. A lot of companies don't even want employees to have second jobs (moonlighting) as this can affect their performance at work.

[StayingPower]

[clark.w.griswald]