Job Discussion Forums

[fox1]

Hi there,

I want to move into an apartment of my own. I know the area I want to live in.. in a part of Osaka.

So, what's next? I've tried lots of normal big-brand real-estate agents, but it's not easy to say the least, what with guarantors and key money and the like.

Do you know any good "no key money" realtors? and would you ever pay "key money"?

[JimDunlop2]

There's a couple of good threads on this kicking around -- if you do a keyword search AND put "JimDunlop2" in the author field, you should be able to pull them up. I wrote a fairly comprehensive article a while back too...

In any event, I don't know if there are any good realtors in your area... The best way is to just visit a few of them and get a feel for how they operate. If they treat you respectfully and show you the same consideration as they do Japanese customers then that's a good start. If they try to brush you off or rush you into making a decision, or try to push you into a particular place, then just move on to the next shop... There are TONS of realtors in every city.

As for the "no key money" issue, well.... it's not up to the realtor. It's up to the landlord whom the realtor represents.... And if the landlord asks for key money then the realtor charges it.

Having said that, here is the typical list of fees that usually get paid when renting a place:

key money (can be the equivalent of 1, 2, and sometimes even 3 month's rent)
damage deposit (ranges from 0 to 3 month's rent)
first (and sometimes the last) month's rent
realtor's commission fee (typically 1 month's rent)

Now, having said that, just because a prospective apartment states that key money is required, doesn't always mean that's written in stone. If you are interested in a place, and they will accept a foreigner, then feel free to haggle with the realtor. You can negotiate: how much key money you pay, how much deposit you pay, and even what your monthly rent is going to be. If you've got the chutzpah you can try asking for a break on all three, but they will likely refuse.... But it's common practice to tell the realtor, "I'll take the place -- but only if the landlord charges me 0 key money..." OR "I'll take the place -- but only if instead of 2 month's key money and 2 month's deposit, you will accept 1 month on each" Or whatever you feel comfortable negotiating based on how much you want the place and what it's worth to you... There are no written rules here. I once had a realtor almost BEG me to take a place -- the original price was 65,000 per month, with 2 month's key money and 2 month's deposit. The realtor told me she'd accept 0 key money and only 1 month's deposit..... (But I had to make a decision within 24 hours). (I didn't take the place in the end, but the realtor was really anxious to make me a deal on it).

So, good luck.... In short, I wouldn't be going about trying to find only realtors who advertise 0 key money... Any company will be able to do that for you... You can even tell them from the beginning -- please only show me places where there is no key money.... And they will usually respect that. Also, keep in mind that if there is no key money to begin with, the landlord may not be quite as willing to budge on other negotiations (but that's just personal speculation -- I can't base that on any evidence)...

[Brooks]

generally key money would be 3 months rent in Osaka.
And, well, there is public housing.
I work with a teacher who lives in public housing. When he moves out he will get the key money back.
He lives in a 2LDK but pays 120,000 a month. He lives near an express stop. I don`t think that is a good deal, but he does. For Sagamihara, I think that is a bit high.

[Inflames]

It depends where you want to move in Osaka. Inside the loop line, figure 3 months rent for key money. If you want to live in Sakuragawa, Uehommachi, or Tanimachi, expect to pay all that money. If you want to live in Kita, Daikokucho, Bentencho, or Tsuruhashi, it will be cheaper. Basically, landlords generally have a good idea how much they can get. Rents are around the same where you live, but key money is a big difference. You can negotiate, but it's harder in a desirable area.

I also found that the no key money places had either higher fees or rent to make up for the lack of key money.

[Glenski]

[bornslippy1981]

I would never pay key money. I've avoided it twice simply by saying I wouldn't.

For example, the 1K I live in now required 2 months key money, 2 months agency fee, 1 month maintenance fee, and 1 month deposit.

I was fortunate that the agent showing me the apartment was a friend of a friend. As the consumer, you have the power to walk. Too many people don't think about that, in my opinion.

The agent showed me 7 apartments in this building. They were all the same, but the reason for this is because I wanted to eat up her time, so it would make negotiation easier on my part.

When it was finished, I said I'd rent one of the units, but only if all fees were waived. I ended up having to pay the maintenance fee, which is just as well because some things broke, and were fixed a few days later. I also had it written into the rental contract that I could move with one month's notice because I had no intention on staying for the two year agreement (I think if you broke the contract, you had to pay 2 months rent). As it is, I'll be leaving this apartment in two months, which is only 9 months into my 2-year agreement.

In the end, I paid: one month maintenance fee, 30,000 Yen to a guarantor company (I could've avoided it by having my job act as my guarantor, but I personally don't want my company having ties to my living arrangements), and 20,000 Yen for insurance, which is pretty standard from what I've read. Oh, and the agency fee was 3000 Yen, but the lunch the agent bought me after I signed the papers cost far more than that.

The bottom line, there are plenty of places you can rent and negotiate on your terms. I live in the Tokyo area, so I can't say for Osaka. But, I do see new buildings going up all the time, and I seldom see the old ones being torn down. The people who own the old buildings would rather be making some money than none at all.

Happy Hunting.

Enjoy,

B

[Brooks]

you get what you pay for.
If you want to live near a train station, it is very likely key money has to be paid.
I have no desire to have to walk far or ride a bike to my train station.
I am paying for the convenience, that is sure.

For only 9 months, your situation was different.

[Apsara]

I'm the same. I have to go out and home again up to 4 times a day and I didn't want to live more than 5 minutes from the train station. If we had refused to pay key money then they just would have waited for someone who would pay and we would have been looking elsewhere. As we live on a major JR line not far from Shinjuku that makes it even more difficult.

If you are happy to live further away from a more minor station, which depending on your circumstances may suit you just fine, then you might well be able to get out of paying key money. The older the building the easier this will be as well.

[kevinmc]

You can try the Kansai Flea Market (google it). Most or all of the places in there ask for no key money, just a deposit. However, you'll very likely end up paying a higher monthly rent at these places than you would at one with key money. I guess it depends how long you plan to stay as to whether that works out better for you or not. Also, as someone said above, key money, gift money and realtor fees can be negotiable depending on the situation - always worth a try! I had better luck finding places by going to smaller realtors in the area where I wanted to live rather than through larger chain companies. Good luck!

[Brooks]

you can negotiate, but negotiating in Japanese isn`t easy.
My wife managed to get a 5,000 yen discount for the monthly rent.

My wife works with a teacher who managed to get out of paying double rent of once every two years. She is from Kyushu and she can bargain.

In Tokyo, I find that often it is take it or leave it. There is a sort of shame in asking for a cheaper price.
Osaka is a different place. My wife doesn`t care. She just wants to save money. But she wanted to live 8 minutes or less from an express train stop. Key money was unavoidable, but at least it was less than it used to be. Back in 2000, it was 5 or 6 months rent of money up front.

[kevinmc]

Very true - I find negotiating in any language to be difficult. That said, it sounds like it's much more acceptable (encouraged?) in Osaka than in Tokyo. I've never lived in Tokyo, so have no idea...

[Dipso]

Have you tried Leo Palace? I believe that some of the cheaper Leo Palace properties don't require key money. I live in a Leo Palace 21 apartment and there is a big gaudy sign hanging off the balcony saying something about " �0 ". I am not in Osaka, however.

[Brooks]

people in Osaka haggle over stuff.
Stuff like fridges, washing machines, TVs.
My wife has tried it in Tokyo and Kanagawa with limited success.
Salesmen just cringe when she asks for a discount on an appliance.

[bornslippy1981]

Just to clarify,

I am a 5-minute walk from the Keihin-Tohoku Line. It's a convenient area, and takes 20 minutes to get to Ueno, which is the area I spend a lot of my free time. If I knew at the time I signed my lease that I'd only be staying in the flat 9 months, then I wouldn't have done it. But, as it turned out, I am leaving Japan sooner than I had anticipated.

In my opinion, if you feel shame in trying to save money, then you should overpay.

Also, this building was built 8 years ago, so it wasn't so much that I was able to negotiate because it's 50-years-old.

[Rorschach]

My 2 cents because I did this 5 months ago. I had lived in a Leopalace apartment for nearly 3 years until October last year when I finally got my act together to find a decent place. There is nothing really wrong with Leopalace but they are definitely more for short-term stays. Leaving Leopalace wasn't difficult, the staff were friendly and I had to pay a leaving/wear-and-tear fee (about 30000yen). My only complaint against them is that they took out another membership fee which I didn't want them to (about 26000yen). I called them up and they realised the mistake and said they would refund the money around the end of last year. Needless to say it wasn't deposited at the time they said so I have to call them again this week to hurry it along.

At first when I was looking for an apartment I went to both Apaman and Able. The guy from Apaman was quite energetic until he realised I wasn't going to move for another month. He explained also that his company's fee was 300,000yen, non-refundable (this on top of key, rent, insurance and damage fees). I told him no way, it was a complete rip-off. Able was much the same but the staff were a little friendlier. I related my story to my Japanese teacher who told me about the public housing scheme they have in Osaka. Initially I went to a housing company that handles the paperwork for these apartments (Tokuyuchin). However, they turned out to be little better than Able/Apaman. By law, I have to pay 3 months in advance as a deposit of which I will receive 80% provided I don't damage the apartment. The company claimed I had to pay them 50% of that money to cover their 'expenses'. When I told my teacher this she told me to apply directly to City Hall.

By applying directly I cut out the middleman. In the end it was a lot of paperwork and a little stress but I'm living now in a 3LDK that is subsidised by the local government by about 75000yen (Market rent - 123,000, My actual rent - 76000). Key money is 0 and there is an 80% refundable deposit. The only thing you need to get one these apartments is a steady job that pays above 250000yen a month, a guarantor who earns the same or more than you and a clean tax record with the city. So to answer the original questions:

'0 yen' realtor? -- City Hall
Would you pay key money? -- No, I stuck to my guns on that. It takes a little more time and luck to find the right place but you can do it without paying key money.