|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
|
 Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Mark wrote: |
That may be true, but it's still not a real job. The JET is not really responsible for anything and nobody depends on the JET for anything. The kids are not even really seriously expected to learn any English.
|
The thing that I find _particularly_ amusing about that post is that as a gross generalisation it is probably more accurately applied to the eikaiwa industry in Japan over JET - as in, there are more JETs that do do things and do have responsibilities than there seem to be eikaiwa drones with the same level of responsibilities.
Either way, it's still a gross generalisation that fails to capture the actual nature of the beast IMO. But hey, why bother working with accurate pictures when all you want to do is slam somethng, eh?  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
That may be true, but it's still not a real job. The JET is not really responsible for anything and nobody depends on the JET for anything. The kids are not even really seriously expected to learn any English.
|
The thing that I find _particularly_ amusing about that post is that as a gross generalisation it is probably more accurately applied to the eikaiwa industry in Japan over JET - as in, there are more JETs that do do things and do have responsibilities than there seem to be eikaiwa drones with the same level of responsibilities.
Either way, it's still a gross generalisation that fails to capture the actual nature of the beast IMO. But hey, why bother working with accurate pictures when all you want to do is slam somethng, eh? |
I don't think it's fair to say that I only want to slam JET.
However, I do definitely think that JET is a horrific waste of money. For every JET that is brought to Japan, a Japanese English Teacher could be sent overseas for a year to study for a year in an intensive English program that included a TESL component.
Didn't someone say there are 6,000 JETs in Japan? That's 6,000 JTEs who could be spending a year abroad. Now that would have a fantastic effect on English teaching in Japan.
JET undoubtedly has benefits, primarily for the JET, but also for the community. Somebody must feel the program is worthwhile or it wouldn't be continued.
And I agree with you about my comment being relevant to eikaiwa. I've said before that eikaiwa is just rent-a-friend, or more accurately, rent-a-foreigner. I would put them in the same category as host/hostess bars for the most part. Your main job is to get the customer to come back. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Venti
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Kanto, Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I know it has been pointed out before, but here it is again:
From the JET Programme home page:
| Quote: |
The Japan Exchange and Teaching (JET) Programme aims to promote grass roots internationalisation at the local level by inviting young overseas graduates to assist in international exchange and foreign language education in local governments, boards of education and elemantary, junior and senior high schools throughout Japan. It seeks to foster ties between Japanese citizens (mainly youth) and JET participants at the person-to-person level.
It was started with the purpose of increasing mutual understanding between the people of Japan and the people of other nations. It aims to promote internationalisation in Japan�s local communities by helping to improve foreign language education and developing international exchange at the community level.
|
I worked as an ALT (not with JET) at 6 different junior high schools and 3 of the JTEs I worked with had spent one or more years living in either Canada or the US. All 3 were near-native-level English speakers. Their English classes were all well-prepared for, but most of the students were usually disinterested and quite often hostile.
While I do agree that JTEs, in general, could be a lot better at English (and better trained as foreign language instructors), I think there's a much deeper problem with English education in this county. It has a lot to do with a lack of interest in English on the parts of both the students and the administrators of the public education system in this country.
The fact that the JET Programme does help to foster ties between JET participants and young Japanese students goes toward helping improve attitudes about English education in this country. It gets some students more interested in learning English and, in the future, some of them may be in a position to help advance English education here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark wrote: |
I don't think it's fair to say that I only want to slam JET. |
It's all you seem to be doing. 
| Quote: |
However, I do definitely think that JET is a horrific waste of money. For every JET that is brought to Japan, a Japanese English Teacher could be sent overseas for a year to study for a year in an intensive English program that included a TESL component.
Didn't someone say there are 6,000 JETs in Japan? That's 6,000 JTEs who could be spending a year abroad. Now that would have a fantastic effect on English teaching in Japan.
|
What makes you think the JTL would treat a paid year overseas any differently to the way the JETs treat it?
Anyway, I think you're making the mistake of assuming the JET programme is _all_ and _only_ about teaching.
I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be a good move (despite what I said above) in some respects, but I don't think the effect would be what you expect it to be. IMO, at best you might manage to shift it towards "not being _quite_ such a waste of money"  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
craven
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark wrote: |
However, I do definitely think that JET is a horrific waste of money. For every JET that is brought to Japan, a Japanese English Teacher could be sent overseas for a year to study for a year in an intensive English program that included a TESL component.
Didn't someone say there are 6,000 JETs in Japan? That's 6,000 JTEs who could be spending a year abroad. Now that would have a fantastic effect on English teaching in Japan.
|
What the heck, I'll weigh in here...there was indeed a program that sent JTEs (along with teachers of other disciplines) abroad for a year...to learn English, and to familiarize themselves with education systems in other countries.
Can you guess what happened?
No one wanted to come back  Pretty expensive to have to replace trained teachers once they've escaped...err, gone abroad for an indefinite period. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Venti wrote: |
I know it has been pointed out before, but here it is again:
From the JET Programme home page:
| Quote: |
The Japan Exchange and Teaching (JET) Programme aims to promote grass roots internationalisation at the local level by inviting young overseas graduates to assist in international exchange and foreign language education in local governments, boards of education and elemantary, junior and senior high schools throughout Japan. It seeks to foster ties between Japanese citizens (mainly youth) and JET participants at the person-to-person level.
It was started with the purpose of increasing mutual understanding between the people of Japan and the people of other nations. It aims to promote internationalisation in Japan�s local communities by helping to improve foreign language education and developing international exchange at the community level.
|
I worked as an ALT (not with JET) at 6 different junior high schools and 3 of the JTEs I worked with had spent one or more years living in either Canada or the US. All 3 were near-native-level English speakers. Their English classes were all well-prepared for, but most of the students were usually disinterested and quite often hostile.
While I do agree that JTEs, in general, could be a lot better at English (and better trained as foreign language instructors), I think there's a much deeper problem with English education in this county. It has a lot to do with a lack of interest in English on the parts of both the students and the administrators of the public education system in this country.
The fact that the JET Programme does help to foster ties between JET participants and young Japanese students goes toward helping improve attitudes about English education in this country. It gets some students more interested in learning English and, in the future, some of them may be in a position to help advance English education here. |
I bolded part of the original point because i really wonder to what degree JET accomplishes either of these 2 objectives. Do they improve foreign language education? What exactly does "international exchange at the community level" mean?
Anyway, I agree with what you say in your post. As for students' lack of interest, I think they're starting to address this with the idea of SELHi and all that.
And as for lack of interest/hostility, I think anybody from English Canada can understand that. Back when the government decided everyone should be bilingual, there was a lot of hostility to French education in some corners of the country. Parents actively encouraging their kids not to learn anything and that sort of thing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Venti
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Kanto, Japan
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark wrote: |
| And as for lack of interest/hostility, I think anybody from English Canada can understand that. Back when the government decided everyone should be bilingual, there was a lot of hostility to French education in some corners of the country. Parents actively encouraging their kids not to learn anything and that sort of thing. |
Yeah, I can see that. When I was an ALT I would often hear that from students. Their parents would tell them things like "English is totally unnecessary" and "Don't bother. You'll never be able to speak it anyway."
Students can be quite candid sometimes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
prlester
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 92
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: cultural prob |
|
|
Is JET the best way to run an ALT program? No. Is it better then JTEs, ekaiwas and dispatches? Yes.
The JET program has the highest quality people, judged by grades, career motives, leadership. These things aren't even explored in ekaiwa interviews.
THough, as a JET I didn't feel a whole lot more useful then a NOVA person, I think the fault was the Japanese perspective for teaching language, not the actual program.
For instance, the lack of grammar and vocab linked to speaking, the lack of any kind of building.
Besides, if JET goes, so does the last decent ESL job in Japan.
I have run into to sour pusses who have denigrated the program, usually because they never got in or were jealous of the higher benefits and worker situations.
In my experience teachers are more interested in the ALT finishing the school year then in replacing him. People job ship at ekaiwas everyday. Other then the huge start up cost at dispatches, I can't think of anything to keep teachers there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| While I do agree that JTEs, in general, could be a lot better at English (and better trained as foreign language instructors), I think there's a much deeper problem with English education in this county. It has a lot to do with a lack of interest in English on the parts of both the students and the administrators of the public education system in this country. |
Not to mention the fact that the system itself caters only to teaching a form of English used only in passing college entrance exams, not in being commuicative. To me, that's the key thing that has to change. Japan is not so stupid as to ignore the fact that science in the world is mostly conducted in English. Remaining in isolation will only hurt its economy, and several Japanese Nobel laureates are speaking out to encourage more ties with the English-speaking world. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
There ARE JTEs who can and want to teach English communicatively (and in demo classes, this is largely what they will do, although they tend to pretend that it's how they ususally teach, although it almost always isn't), but they can't, because they HAVE to test the students. It becomes very apparent very quickly, that students who have been trained to never think for themselves have great difficulty doing so when asked to. But then, if you give a test in which it is possible that there are more than one answer, then that test must be flawed.
This leads JTEs who can extoll the virtues of communicative language classes to ultimately ignore all that and just teach specifically to the test, which MUST be designed so that there is only one correct answer, leading to nothing ever changing.
I was at a conference once in which an American English language professor told the JTEs and ALTs that 'you work too hard'. The onus should be on the students to communicate, instead of on the teachers to come up with a billion worksheets a year. But because Japanese teachers are products of the Japanese education system (and truthfully, a big chunk of the public teachers' main goal is to get out of teaching and into a desk job at the Board of Education) they worry that when students are doing group work the teachers are 'just standing there' and aren't actually working. The explanation that monitoring and guiding students is actually working, and that in truly communcative classes, the bulk of the teacher's really hard work is before class in preparation for it is almost always met with "we Japanese teachers are busy. We don't have time to prepare for classes".
I read an article in the Daily Yomiuri (I think it was) that said that Japanese teachers are the busiest in doing things outside of teaching (out of however many countries across the world were investigated). Although it wasn't mentioned, that means that the percentage of their time that they can spend actually teaching and preparing for lessons is lowest of those countries. Because teaching time cannot be altered (other than by changing the schedule to make time for things like sports day practice) then what gets cut is preparation time.
Communicative teaching requires a lot of preparation time. Japanese teachers have no time to prepare for classes.
Communicative teaching requires student participation to be successful. Japanese teachers cannot let go of control over the class because students cannot be trusted to do what they are told to.
Communicative teaching means that students communicate, leading to them expressing their own ideas. Japanese teachers have to test students in ways which cannot lead to there being any more than one possible correct answer. And they have to prepare them for this test by having them do the actual test questions many, many times in class.
Communicative teaching won't be a reality in Japan any time soon. A lot of schools are really looking for a way to call what they do communicative without actually changing anything that they do. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:59 am Post subject: Re: cultural prob |
|
|
| prlester wrote: |
Is JET the best way to run an ALT program? No. Is it better then JTEs, ekaiwas and dispatches? Yes.
The JET program has the highest quality people, judged by grades, career motives, leadership. These things aren't even explored in ekaiwa interviews. |
None of these things makes for a high quality ALT in itself. JET doesn't even require ANY training in teaching English language. Smaller companies that send people into private high schools sometimes do. How can that situation possibly lead to the 'highest quality people'?
Do you really think high grades totally unrelated subjects makes people good English teachers, or even good assistant English teachers? JET is a crapshoot. It's pretty common knowledge that people with experience and teaching credecntials are often turned down. Career motives change pretty quickly (it is common for potential JETs to just put down anything that is related to whatever they studied that they can connect with Japan, even if they have no intention of ever going through with it. It's just something to talk about at an interview).
| Quote: |
THough, as a JET I didn't feel a whole lot more useful then a NOVA person, I think the fault was the Japanese perspective for teaching language, not the actual program.
For instance, the lack of grammar and vocab linked to speaking, the lack of any kind of building. |
Japanese teachers now assume that ALTs don't have a clue when it comes to grammar because so many show up...without a clue (because they have no educational background in the area). At the same time, though, most Japanese teachers can't explain English grammar in English and so that creates a huge barrier.
| Quote: |
Besides, if JET goes, so does the last decent ESL job in Japan.
I have run into to sour pusses who have denigrated the program, usually because they never got in or were jealous of the higher benefits and worker situations.
In my experience teachers are more interested in the ALT finishing the school year then in replacing him. |
That's because it's really embarassing to them to have people quit. They have to explain why the ALT hated it so much (which they can just pass off with 'homesick') but they also have to explain why they couldn't control the 'situation' (read "ALT") so as to avoid this occuring.
JET is not the 'last decent ESL [sic] job in Japan'. It's kind of sad that you think it is. Have you ever taught ESL or EFL elsewhere?
JET doesn't have 'higher benefits and worker situations' than where I am now.
| Quote: |
Other then the huge start up cost at dispatches, I can't think of anything to keep teachers there. |
hmmmm... a dispatch company hires ALTs. JET (CALIR) is a national program that hires ALTs. Maybe by 'dispatch company' you mean the worst case scenerio that is occasionally complained about with the large ones. Otherwise, I would have thought that almost all JETs had heard ESID (every situation is different). Some people who weren't directly hired by their school work in several schools. Some only work in one, and they have much more of a teacher role than most JET ALTs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: JET Programme closing down...? |
|
|
Well, to answer the question, no it isn't being scrapped. The first JET group of three groups has arrived in Tokyo and the Programme is alive and doing very well.
So...let's save the conspiracy theories about JET closing down until next year, shall we?
Regards,
fat_c |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I don't think people actually believed it would be shutting down THIS YEAR. Things in Japan don't change that quickly...unless not changing sonehow involves embarassment because people that Japan cares about - not other Asian nations- don't like a particular thing. If that is the situation, it can change almost overnight, and then the offical line will be that it was always like that. When people pont out that it wasn't, deny, deny, deny. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alberta605
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 94
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark wrote: |
| I bolded part of the original point because i really wonder to what degree JET accomplishes either of these 2 objectives. Do they improve foreign language education? What exactly does "international exchange at the community level" mean? |
Great point!
I don't know why the G Cthulu (or whatever his unweildy name is) keeps rolling out from under his rock everytime someone critiques the JET Programme. Is he some sort of elected JET representative to the peoples of the universe? If he or anyone else wants to toot on the JET programme trumpet then please do so by referring to relevant and CREDIBLE (i.e published) research on how those aims are being met.
Otherwise, wind your neck in. Cheers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Alberta605 wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
| I bolded part of the original point because i really wonder to what degree JET accomplishes either of these 2 objectives. Do they improve foreign language education? What exactly does "international exchange at the community level" mean? |
Great point!
|
And one that has been talked over several hundred times. Maybe a trip through the archives would save everyone some time?
| Quote: |
I don't know why the G Cthulu (or whatever his unweildy name is)
|
Nice ad hom. Care to stick to the point, or is our personal history of disagreement more important to you?
| Quote: |
keeps rolling out from under his rock everytime someone critiques the JET Programme. Is he some sort of elected JET representative to the peoples of the universe?
|
Guess you've answered my question above.
You need to take a closer look at what I actually write. I'm perfectly happy to lay into the JET programme. However, and unlike you, I do some from the position of actual experience and knowledge. (2 points if you can spot the return ad hom correctly, btw) I don't have a problem with criticism of the JET programme. I do have a problem with ignorant and/or unfounded critcism. You'll notice that's why I reply to you a lot. Or perhaps you won't - hey, maybe the problem is you, not te programme?! 
| Quote: |
If he or anyone else wants to toot on the JET programme trumpet then please do so by referring to relevant and CREDIBLE (i.e published) research on how those aims are being met.
Otherwise, wind your neck in. Cheers.
|
Actually, if you want any credibility, it is the *critics* that bear the burden of proof to deliver relevant and credible (ie. peer reviewed) research on why the JET programme is so bad in whatever way you happen to be claiming today. You wanna make the claim then it's up to you to put up or shut up. (By the way, before you whine at me some more, you may have failed to notice, but I've never said the JET programme was delivering on the goals you keep talking about. Keep on talking past the point though.)
I apologise in advance if that upsets you. Personally, I don't care because this is all just random pixels from unknown strangers yabbering into the ether as far as I'm concerned. It's touching that you might think more of it. Sad, and a little disturbing, but touching.
Your pal,
G.
(Any other "fans" want to add to the chorus? ) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
