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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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 Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Why so much verbiager, vikdk, so much sermonising and moralising when all you are saying should apply to you first of all!
As for the oft-heard "immersion" in China - it isn't a Chinese concept at all; the Chinese only naively adopted it from their Anglo-American friends ca. early 1980s when China struck out to establish links to universities abroad; the first takers were U.S. American tertiary institutions who sold the Chinese on this silly concept that, of course, never works in China.
That is why even Steven Krashen is not unknown to them. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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As for the oft-heard "immersion" in China - it isn't a Chinese concept at all; the Chinese only naively adopted it from their Anglo-American friends ca. early 1980s when China struck out to establish links to universities abroad; the first takers were U.S. American tertiary institutions who sold the Chinese on this silly concept that, of course, never works in China.
That is why even Steven Krashen is not unknown to them. |
That's very interesting Steppenwolf - but if you read through the posts you may find references to Canada and Wales - places where immersion techniques have been utalised for many years - and in such programs then, for a certain period - maybe a whole school year - total schooling is carried out in the L2 - so I have a feeling that most people writing here did realise that immersion teaching wasn't something that has been developed in China.
No Steppenwolf - read through the posts again and you will find the main gripe with an immersion program "Chinese style" is that its a term so often applied to hour long classes - usually attended by the student once or twice a week - where the only langauge allowed in the class is English. Most posters here feel that these two hours hardly constitute an immersion into the English langauge. But what the heck its only a name 
By the way Stepp I think I'd have problems in your English only classes - what's a verbiager - is it good  |
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winterlynx1
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Xi'an, Shaanxi, China
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not a 'Chinese speaker' yet but even the limited amount of Chinese that I know has been a big help. It helps me to understand why some aspects of learning English are difficult for the Chinese student. It helps me appreciate what the language learner is up against, and helps me to judge the effectiveness of language learning methods.
A person does have to be careful, however, to encourage the students to speak to you in English, for the obvious reasons. If they know, or even think, that you can understand their Chinese, then some children seem to abandon the English instantly. That can be a problem. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| If they know, or even think, that you can understand their Chinese, then some children seem to abandon the English instantly. That can be a problem. |
Those with experience of teaching Children up to 5 years of age will probably have experienced being addressed by these Children in "lengthy" monologues (explaining about a birthday or some such event) in Chinese - whether they know you are a Chinese speaker or not. A particular point in case is when you meet Children outside the kindy, children who can string a simple sentence or two together in the classroom - here it can be so difficult to get any English out of them apart from a hello - seemingly the environment change rather puts any English they have on hold. But with respect to this problem here are 3 points -
1. If Chinese is discouraged in the favour of English being encouraged - then of course this is an important point if the Chinese is coming from the Child's mouth. But to encourage more English and fully explain how to use English instead of Chinese - then Chinese can be used to support this process. This type of method is very different to the strict English only environments that have been suggested by other posters. In this process don�t make the Child nervous or feel guilty because they have used Chinese - otherwise the result maybe no communication what so ever.
2. The fact that the child wants to communicate with you - in whatever language - is a plus for your English teaching. Rather than censoring that Child and making them less inclined to want to communicate - try to nurture that relationship so as to being able to swing the language of communication towards English. However in typical FT situation - with so many children and an in and out of classroom culture - this can be difficult.
3. with respect to small Children - don't look for instant results - and even if today you are having big problems getting a child to speak English - then if they are paying attention to your lesson - then results will emerge. We have found some Children who have been very quiet in our classes for over a year suddenly start to be more verbal by using English. Hopefully this is an indication that teaching children as young as 3/4 has a catalytic effect on future English acquisition - and have found that many 5/6 year olds that have been in our teaching for 2 years plus - suddenly make great advances and some even start to go through a self- learning process after using those English learning DVD's and VCD's they all have. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| winterlynx1 wrote: |
I'm not a 'Chinese speaker' yet but even the limited amount of Chinese that I know has been a big help. It helps me to understand why some aspects of learning English are difficult for the Chinese student. It helps me appreciate what the language learner is up against, and helps me to judge the effectiveness of language learning methods.
A person does have to be careful, however, to encourage the students to speak to you in English, for the obvious reasons. If they know, or even think, that you can understand their Chinese, then some children seem to abandon the English instantly. That can be a problem. |
That�s pretty much the way I see it too.
Although it is clear that speaking Chinese in the classroom may make things easier for the foreign teacher, I continue to question the value for the students. In fact in my experiences this practice has generally been detrimental to the students� fluency in English from what I have seen, often for the very reasons that you mention.
As to the issue of the term �immersion� well I am not going to get into that. As I mentioned earlier, I use the term in the context that it is used here in China and I am confident that everyone knows what I am referring to. |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
No Steppenwolf - read through the posts again and you will find the main gripe with an immersion program "Chinese style" is that its a term so often applied to hour long classes - usually attended by the student once or twice a week - where the only langauge allowed in the class is English. Most posters here feel that these two hours hardly constitute an immersion into the English langauge. But what the heck its only a name
By the way Stepp I think I'd have problems in your English only classes - what's a verbiager - is it good |
The "Total Immersion" concept does not hinge on a once-weekly practice session; you can implement it in almost every English class - grammar instruction, intensive reading/extensive reading, literature, etc. And that's why TI can't work here - it's because the CHINESE teachers are the culprits that won't use English in class themselves because they too delude themselves they owe it to their laggard students to explain in, and to translate, every English word into their vernacular. This is a self-defeating approach that I have never seen in practice anywhere else in the world. Add to this mindboggling attitude the fact that classes have on average twice as many students as in a Western school, and you see why they always opt for the lowest common denominator!
Imagination is the key to understanding an abstract concept that is transproted by a second or foreign language; you learn not just the vocabulary of a tongue but the way its native speakers process thoughts. Language is only a mirror of thinking; hence teaching English should be done in English as much as possible (certainly more than is done in China) precisely so that Chinese (or any other foreign students) can follow an English discourse without special measures being taken.
I see that Raffles in Guangzhou offers design programmes and other subjects that are not normally covered by universities; Raffles has a good reputation. Even so, they are offering courses in ENGLISH, not in Chinese, because their lecturers hail from Singapore and Europe.
But small print in their adverts explains that "Chinese translation is provided" in some classes...
And from Australia comes a study that says 43 percent of Asian students (mainly Chinese) don't acquire any English beyond the scope of their study subjects; they typically end up being professionals with zero social skills in the target language. Ghettoisation is the norm among Chinese who even in a Western country will need their special comfort zone. This study was published by MONASH UNIVERSITY. It has some serious implications for those involved in formulating immigration policy: since students are free to take up a job or even apply for permanent residency Australia is thus recruiting a linguistically dysfunctional fringe group into its mainstream society!
Let's state the obvious (which has not been said yet):
- There are too many underachievers in China's English classrooms that get treated to special care to the detriment of their personality growth! They are being mollycoddled in order to help massage pass rates of public schools - to safe national face!
- It's not the language that's the problem because an infinitesimal minority always outperforms everyone to the astonishment of foreigners (though hardly noticed by locals); the problem is attitudinal.
- The attitudinal problems are narcisstic national self-love a.k.a. face; because of it no serious and meaningful input from outsiders can be applied until it has been adulterated, watered down, sinicised.
- Learning a language is unlike studying sciences; it is forming a person and personality; this is in conflict with Chinese education objectives (which include "harmony", i.e. cultural monotony and uniformism). Authorities are afraid that their students might be exposed to foreign "spiritual pollution" through an alien language medium.
That is why little enthusiasm is shown by teachers and students for this subject; they are studying it as part of their patriotic duties. Hence any improvements to the teaching is done half-heartedly and results in one and a half steps forward and one step backward!
And here is some suggestion: Try to see things differently! How about studying how non-Hans acquire near-perfect Mandarin proficiency and fluency within half the time it takes everyone to arrive at the mediocre level of English communications skills we all know to be the norm here?
Tibetans, Uighurs and lots of other ethnic groups don't benefit from such excessive concern about "understanding the words in the target language"; if they want to go to a better middle school or to college, Mandarin is mercilessly imposed on them - with great effectiveness!
And the best is: among these students you will find many more good English speakers than among the Hans!
I would say, in a class of ten Chiense and ten Uighurs, 5 of the Uighurs will be excellent English speakers, and at most one of the Chinese will master English well enough.
Sorry about that typo, vikky, but in general you score much worse than I do. You routinely write "langauge", for example - see above! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| As to the issue of the term �immersion� well I am not going to get into that. As I mentioned earlier, I use the term in the context that it is used here in China and I am confident that everyone knows what I am referring to. |
Well of course you are wellcome to stay quiet on a subject - but when you are trying to tell us you are experienced in an immersion program - and then not defining the method that is involved in the perticular type of teaching you have done - does seem a strange way to carry on a discussion. To the assume you do not have to further explain this method - because you assume everybody understands what it is!!!!! How many of you out there can tell me about Clark's teaching methods - what exactly is his type of immersion method is that he claims to be so effective. Just the simple facts regarding the educational arena (kindy/school/mill), teacher/student classroom ration - ages of students - immersion time schedules such as length of program, how much immersion /week on an hourly scale. some of us teaching enthusiats are interested in this kind of guff |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| Well of course you are wellcome to stay quiet on a subject |
I have every intention of doing so as per what I wrote in my original post on the subject and in recognition of the fact that it is not relevant to this thread.
The practice of picking out a word from what I wrote and going on about it like this does not help to support your argument about using Chinese in the classroom by the way. Why not deal with the topic at hand rather than trying to divert attention elsewhere? Feel free to start a thread about the usage of the word 'immersion' by schools in China however if it is of that much interest to you.
BTW everything that you wrote in your reply to winterlynx1 is acheivable without the need to use Chinese in the classroom, so it is not about whether you use Chinese but about how well you actually teach.
Seems to me that this topic has run its course but we will see if anything new comes up. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| BTW everything that you wrote in your reply to winterlynx1 is acheivable without the need to use Chinese in the classroom, so it is not about whether you use Chinese but about how well you actually teach |
well of course it might be - but you're strange silences on certain subjects in this thread do lead one to wonder if you are talking from practical experience which tells you "English only" is the best method - or just following the line of the "English only" order from your bosses.
You write that you have experienced both methods - so why be so aggressive when asked for more details - which when we consider the word "advantage" in the title of the thread - could be very on topic and a usefull bit of info for us other FT's. Why hide your 12 years experience Clark - don't be shy - share it with us others |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Thanks guys for an interesting debate. I'm currently studying this topic and it's nice to see ideas flying around . I recommend this as a good read into usage of the L1 in class.
http://www.teachenglishworldwide.com/Articles/Ferrer_mother%20tongue%20to%20promote%20noticing.pdf
I agree with the feelings that explicit language knowledge and form-focused instruction should be considered especially when we have been bombarded with Chomsky and his innatist views along with interlanguage theory and Universal grammar. Not to mention propoganda concerning communicative language teaching and Krashen. L1 Language use in class seems more attractive than I thought but I still believe you really have to have a very good command of Chinese to teach explicit grammar knowledge rules to adult students and I's still use my assistant always with reference to Chinese with kids . |
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