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Chris21
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 366
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| How many times does it take before you get it?! |
I don't know... but I'm appreciative in your efforts to help me.
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| Experience is not a formal factor for consideration. For you to suggest it is (and that's how I saw your characterisation of it) is wrong. |
In the second chapter of David L. McConnell's book about the JET programme, "Importing Diversity", he quotes an official from each of the three ministries that oversee the program, the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and the Ministry of Education. In doing so, he illustrated that each of the Ministries had a different goal within the program. The Ministry of Home Affairs was looking to internationalize Japan from the bottom-up, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was looking to spread Japanese culture around the world, and the Ministry of Education was looking to improve English Education in Japan. He encapsulates this well with the following quote "From the very moment the idea for the JET program was conceived, it's administrative structure and implementation were affected by competing goals and rivalries between the inward- and outward-looking ministries that were directly charged with it's oversight". To put this in practical terms, consider an interview panel that is preoccupied with the goals of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in that they are looking to spread Japanese culture outward. If they have two evenly-matched candidates, one of whom has studied about Japan in school, is a huge fan of anime and sumo, and has expressed an interest in living in Japan after the JET program, and a candidate who is interested in Japan but has plans to attend graduate school in their home country after the JET program, which way will they decide? It could go either way, but if they really want to adhere to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs' unnofficial goals, don't you think it's possible they'd select the second candidate based on their lack of "Japan-ness"?
In relation to your point, I never said that it was a formal factor, but it can still play an influential part in the selection process.
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| To say that it may be viz personal biases of the interviewers or application reviewers doesn't add anything to the discussion _because it's not something applicants can control for_. |
Sure, it is. Applicants may be under the impression that the more Japanese-related info they offer in the interview, the more impressive they will be to judges. I think at the very least, knowing that experience with Japan isn't always to their benefit, may encourage them to temper themselves for judges.
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| Look, I'm really sorry that you don't seem able to see this distinction, but I can't explain it to you any more. |
I'm sure you'll find a way.
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| Not unless you can control for all other equally random factors. And the reality is that you can't. _If_ it were part of the formal process then you'd have a point. But it isn't. As it is you're simply turning the idea into dogma: you refuse to belive that it can't be even when presented with direct evidence that it isn't. |
I may be missing something, but has direct evidence been provided? From what I can remember of our discussion, you've repeatedly said that I'm wrong, but does this count as direct evidence? Has something more substantive been offered? As you point out in the quote above, it's impossible to control for all factors. I don't recall any emprical studies being done on the interview-selection of JETs. As a result, how can you discount a hypothesis that is feasible and is shared by not just me? Until direct evidence is available that proves to the contrary, I'm afraid you'll have a difficult time persuading me.
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| Look, why seize on the experience part? It's not part of the formal criteria. Just like having an Asian last name isn't. But you didn't seize on that when the OP asked if it might be a factor, did you? Why not? |
Because I had never heard of an applicant that thought her last name was to blame. If there were more people that felt this way, then it might be something to consider. But since there aren't, it can probably be safely ruled out as a factor in the interview process.
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| It's just as true and helpful as your line about "experience" - that is to say, false and not something someone can control for. |
With regard to experience, interests, goals, etc, people can control how they present themselves to an interview committee. They can emphasize certain aspects, and downplay others.
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| "Contradictory criteria"? You have no evidence for that statement. You've offered none. |
A quick scan of the thousands of diverse people that have been on the program should be evidence enough that there isn't a universal set of criteria. McConnell says it nicely when he wrote "through the lens of the JET program, we see competing interpretations of 'internationalization'".
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| That people happen to believe it doesn't count as evidence for it. Why do you find it so difficult to believe that there are standards and guidelines for the process? |
While there may be guidelines for selecting candidates, interviewers have a great deal of latitude to stray from the standards and guidelines. Guidelines, even the strictest of guidelines, can not enforce something universally. To illustrate my point, one of JET's most stringent rules is that JETs can't immediately re-apply to the program. I heard of a JET that re-applied (while she was still in JET) and was accepted into the program. Now keep in mind that this was a rule, not a guideline, and even it wasn't 100% enforceable. With competing goals for the JET program, and interviewers with varied backgrounds, guidelines are limited in their effectiveness.
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| You're characterising it as if it were one gigantic throw of the dice, and yet you have no evidence for that - quite the contrary! |
I don't think that I have. I think there are certain prinicples applicants should adhere to in the interview... earnestness, congeniality, enthsusiasm, etc... but at the same time I acknowledge that there is an element of unpredictability in the process.
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| I'm saying that the biases you attribute to the system are not part of the system but can be part of the individuals within the system. |
If the biases come from the individuals within the system, what's the difference? If the system is comprised of individuals, then don't they count as being part of the system? The end result is the same. This seems to be a unneccesary semantic distinction.
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| How, exactly, is someone that is,say, Asian going to be "helped" by suddenly knowing that one of the interview panel members they will face dislikes Asians? What are they going to do?! Is it really going to be "helpful" to them to know that people have biases and those biases can play a part in hiring processes, no matter how objective the process itself tries to be?! |
It's absolutely helpful. If you're aware of interviewer biases, then you can adjust how you present yourself to the hiring committee. If I knew that an interview committee was interested in candidates with limited contact with Japan, and likely to go back to their home countries after three years, I might have modified my interview strategy so that I could appeal to both sides. Of course it's not possible to change your enthnicity as in the example you mentioned, but even in that case, it might be in the interviewee's interest to apply through a different consulate.
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| Blaming it on commonly held myths doesn't help anyone. |
If it's a commonly-held myth, and something that has yet to be empirically disproven, doesn't that make it worthy of consideration?
Last edited by Chris21 on Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cafebleu
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: (_I won't_bore_you_with_this) |
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Well, well, well.
Jenjen's request for advice becomes a thread where throwing up bad tempered responses plus long, pompous ones using this_ for what purpose is unclear, is seen as 'advice' and a necessary means of putting down those who dare to offer their own opinion to Jenjen. 
Jenjen - I have friends who were accepted for the JET programme a while ago but I believe the selection criteria hasn't changed that much. I think your best approach when applying for JET and other schemes is to realise that while you've done your best and feel happy with your application, if it's not what the selection panel is looking for then you're not going to get selected.
It's probably overly optimistic to think of yourself as a 'shoo in' - in any employment application situation, whether it's JET or your home country, that could be a recipe for real disappointment.
My friends who were accepted for JET didn't write about themselves in a way that seemed overly self-focused. Any employment application has to be self-focused but there's an approach such as the "Can do" approach common to Americans which doesn't work sometimes.
To give an example - one of my jobs in the ESl industry was to assist in the selection of applicants for interviews (nothing to do with JET). I and my colleagues NEVER selected anybody who was intent on asserting how much they would do for our business and how they could show us this way or that of doing things.
Those kinds of applicants (mostly Americans) were just too direct in focusing on what they would do, an excess of the "I can do this" approach.
I'm not saying that is what you wrote - I'm just pointing out how what some applicants see as a 'pro active' approach looks bombastic and not focused enough on fitting in with what the employer is seeking. |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Chris21 wrote: |
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| Blaming it on commonly held myths doesn't help anyone. |
If it's a commonly-held myth, and something that has yet to be empirically disproven, doesn't that make it worthy of consideration? |
You're so concerned with winning this argument that you don't realize how ridiculous you sound.
Look, McConnell's book may have been a relevant resource years ago, but it's long outdated. Try picking up the 250-page JETプログラムの20年とその未来展望 that came out last month. You'd see that even the names of the minstries you cite have changed. Get with the times, dude. JET is a dynamic organization. Not only is your information incorrect and your logic flawed, but even if it was correct at some point it's not now.
I really should just leave this thread alone, but it does bother me when people come along and fuel the rumors and misconceptions while trying to act like they know what they are talking about. |
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ghostrider
Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: Re: Rejected by JET?! |
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jennjenn: I was an alternate TWICE and was never upgraded.
I would suggest not bother applying again unless you're in no rush to move there. The best you can hope for next time is fixing a few mistakes and having better luck. They will not view you more favorably based on the number of times you apply.
For everything good about JET, there is something good about the big 4. None are clearly the best option. |
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Alberta605
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 94
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: |
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JET is very handy for those who wish to place the emphasis of their experience in Japan outside work.
The rules of JET state that you must be at school before 9am and leave no earlier than 3.30pm - basically the entire school day. But really, in many cases the periods of inactivity are so long it feels like a long slow day at 'work' indeed. If you are joining the JET program to experience the thrill of working in a Japanese school you have my applause if you still feel as motivated in this endeavor after 3 months. This doesn't apply to all cases, but if there is one consistent remark about JET it is the blatant underuse of the people sent out here at great expense.
An unjustifiable waste of money, time and effort. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Alberta605 wrote: |
JET is very handy for those who wish to place the emphasis of their experience in Japan outside work.
The rules of JET state that you must be at school before 9am and leave no earlier than 3.30pm - basically the entire school day. |
Actually, it's 8:30 until 4:15 in most contracts. The mantra of the JET programme is Every Situation is Different.
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But really, in many cases the periods of inactivity are so long it feels like a long slow day at 'work' indeed. |
I have between four and five classes a day as well as usually having one meeting in English and one meeting in Japanese every day. |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Alberta605 wrote: |
| The rules of JET state that you must be at school before 9am and leave no earlier than 3.30pm - basically the entire school day. But really, in many cases the periods of inactivity are so long it feels like a long slow day at 'work' indeed. |
Once again you present your incorrect information as if it were fact. There is no "rules of JET" because every CO writes its own contract. There is a model contract, but it's just that - only a model. There are many JETs who work unusual hours. Some get half days some days of the week because they are working in the evenings on other days, etc etc. And many JETs are very busy. Sure, some aren't, but if you are motivated and form good relationships in your workplace, you can make your job busy and active even if it didn't start out that way. If you aren't being productive as a JET, the first person you should look to blame is yourself. |
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Alberta605
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 94
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Kdyanmic the 'standard' of a productive JET is similar to those applied to a 16 year old on a youth training scheme. If you subscribe to those standards then you are indeed as immature as your childishly argumentative nature suggests you are.
As I say, work is not the major idea in the JET program - let's call it cultural exploration and leave the pretentions that we may (or may not) hold about ourselves as 'teachers' aside.
As the previous poster (and the perpetually recycling Kdynamic) does prove, and again not in contradiction of anything i have said - the situation does differ. If you speak Japanese to conversational level then I would certainly expect your situation to differ from mine and those who worked in my town. As for school attendance rules - certainly none of the JETs I knew in my time on the program worked anything other that 0900 - 1530. There were optional community center activities that we were cordially/optionally invited to which most avoided.
It's so hard to contradict somebody's personal experience and suggest yours is more valid unless you're a sandwich short of the proverbial picnic - particularly as we all do agree that each individual experience may differ significantly. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| The rules of JET state that you must be at school before 9am and leave no earlier than 3.30pm - basically the entire school day. But really, in many cases the periods of inactivity are so long it feels like a long slow day at 'work' indeed. |
I've never been on JET, but I don't feel sorry for anyone who has so much free time on their hands. If bigdaikon.com's discussion board is any reflection of the majority of JET ALTs and what they do with their spare time, all the more. That site's forum for teaching methods is the smallest one. Why? Because the people who contribute to the site have no inclination to improve their teaching methods (or learn any in the first place).
Got some down time?
1. Learn Japanese.
2. Make a newsletter for the school.
3. Join a club and do something then.
4. Help other teachers (correct papers, plan lessons, discuss ways to improve the local system, etc.)
5. In the case where ALTs also do work for the city, take that stuff to work and do it (eg, write a script you have to record for the local museum or other sightseeing spot)
6. Help students with speeches
7. Find material for students to recite in speech contests
8. Write English manuals or guides for various processes there (an orientation guide, how to use the LL equipment, how to use the cafeteria, etc.)
9. Study EFL practices |
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dove
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: USA/Japan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| I know a lot of JETs think they are making a good impression if they are seen studying Japanese during working hours, during the time when there are no teaching hours. But I'd be careful about doing too much of that. It might not go over well with the Japanese teachers who are busy busy busy. I was on the JET Programme a few years ago and I can say that the best way to make a good impression is to prepare materials, make posters, write dialogues....anything relating to TEACHING. (Even though the JTE might never agree to use it) Yes, I know that the JET Programme is not only about teaching. But the math teacher watching you study during working hours doesn't know you were hired to be a cultural ambassador. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| Alberta605 wrote: |
It's so hard to contradict somebody's personal experience and suggest yours is more valid unless you're a sandwich short of the proverbial picnic - particularly as we all do agree that each individual experience may differ significantly. |
So what you seem to be saying is that kd's mentioning what the standard contract says (y'know: the one that is required as a minimum for CO's to participate in JET!) is *less* valid than your *particular* experience? Doesn't sound like a very strong position to be arguing from either, mate.  |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| dove wrote: |
| I know a lot of JETs think they are making a good impression if they are seen studying Japanese during working hours, during the time when there are no teaching hours. But I'd be careful about doing too much of that. It might not go over well with the Japanese teachers who are busy busy busy. I was on the JET Programme a few years ago and I can say that the best way to make a good impression is to prepare materials, make posters, write dialogues....anything relating to TEACHING. (Even though the JTE might never agree to use it) Yes, I know that the JET Programme is not only about teaching. But the math teacher watching you study during working hours doesn't know you were hired to be a cultural ambassador. |
If you're busy, busy, busy studying Japanese then I don't see what the problem is if you also do the rest of your job properly. Surely studying Japanese can only be a benefit to both you and the school if it allows the teacher to get on better with other teachers. I don't see the point in pandering to the ignorant maths teacher as they could just as well feel annoyed if you are surfing the Internet and are unaware you are looking for teaching materials.
At least if you studied Japanese you could explain the misunderstanding if you really had to. |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| Alberta605 wrote: |
| As I say, work is not the major idea in the JET program. |
I have very little sympathy for JETs who complain of boredom. No one is chaining you to big daikon. Use your time to do something productive! Ok, so no one is micromanaging you and telling you what to do every minute. Does that mean you can't come up with something on your own? Glenski's list is a good start. It's so rich how lazy people blame the system for the fact that they accomplish nothing. I understand that you are limited by your JTE's and supervisors, etc etc, but there is no way you can convince me that you're not able to do anything at all. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| No one is chaining you to big daikon. Use your time to do something productive! |
BD isn't productive?!  All that time I wasted.......
.... oh well.  |
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heathergray
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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I hope I don't end up as a JET in Japan starting flame wars on Dave's ESL cafe website. I'm shocked by the egocentrism and irritability of some of the people on these boards, as well as the time they spend actually responding to each others' posts, word by word.
On a brighter note, I'm interested in what I've read about JET in this thread, as a first-time applicant for 2007. I feel like I probably went too far in describing what "JET will do for me" in my statement of purpose rather than what I will do for JET. Perhaps I can amend this by emphasizing enthusiasticially (so genki!) what I will do for JET in my interview on the 16th ... |
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