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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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 Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'm looking into doing the MA TESOL at Sheffield Hallam. I think I'll be OK to qualify for entry. Is a CELTA, DELTA,BSc Hons Degree and over 3 years experience in TEFL in China mainly (some TESL in the UK) enough to get on the course ? This GRE has me a little confused . Do I need that ?
Out of interest-
For those who have done the MA online how many hours a night average do you spend studying ? I want to continue with the Hanyu progress whilst I study !!
DMB - when did you do your instrument in class - The first, second or third year ? The DELTA also asks that candidates design this instrument in class. Just wondering . I should be exempt from the 1st year but if you do the instrument in the 2nd year I'll be repeating the exerrcise. |
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wildchild
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 519
Location: Puebla 2009 - 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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mep3 said
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| I'm not clear on what the search results in that link are. |
Sorry, they are not sorted by whether or not they require the GRE. 
Unfortunately, you will have to sort through them. You might try looking at programs in cities that you like and then narrow it down to the ones that don't require the GRE. |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Sheeba, if you have the DELTA then you should be exempt from the first year at SHU. The COI will be one of your first two assessed assignments in your first year.- You start off with unassessed assignments. If you have any querries about the program at SHU pm me. |
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tedkarma
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 1598
Location: The World is my Oyster
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| dmb wrote: |
| the MA is purely an academic qualification, |
And, uh . . . there is really nothing wrong with that! I have often, in better jobs, spent significant time with the other graduate-level educated instructors, discussing IN-DEPTH solutions to the issues that confronted our students and how to go about solving them. Sometimes the solutions involve writing and publishing a better textbook - focusing directly on the specific needs of our students - and sometimes it involves a deeper understanding of how people learn - and where and how to tweak curriculum. All, I believe, to the substantial benefit of our students.
Really, an in-depth understanding of learning, learning processes, educational psychology, etc. is not a BAD idea. Is it?
But, I guess, on second thought - I am not quite sure what you mean by "purely academic qualification" and if you mean that it is a GOOD thing or a BAD thing - or if the comment carries no judgment at all. |
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movinaround
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| tedkarma wrote: |
| dmb wrote: |
| the MA is purely an academic qualification, |
And, uh . . . there is really nothing wrong with that! I have often, in better jobs, spent significant time with the other graduate-level educated instructors, discussing IN-DEPTH solutions to the issues that confronted our students and how to go about solving them. Sometimes the solutions involve writing and publishing a better textbook - focusing directly on the specific needs of our students - and sometimes it involves a deeper understanding of how people learn - and where and how to tweak curriculum. All, I believe, to the substantial benefit of our students.
Really, an in-depth understanding of learning, learning processes, educational psychology, etc. is not a BAD idea. Is it?
But, I guess, on second thought - I am not quite sure what you mean by "purely academic qualification" and if you mean that it is a GOOD thing or a BAD thing - or if the comment carries no judgment at all. |
For the bolded part, I am not sure if you are making a judgement, but people without an MA can easily do the same in a ton of different ways. I am not saying an MA is useless, I have argued in other places there is never a time when any form of education is useless, and MAs are very useful and tend to help a lot of people, especially the students of the person with the MA (ofcourse considering it is applicable, and not a MA in an unrelated field, though even those sometimes have some applicability). It just sounds like you are coming off as only someone with an MA could possibly understand what you are talking about (ie rather snobby, just saying that is what it sounds like you are saying, not that you are saying that ...  ) |
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tedkarma
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 1598
Location: The World is my Oyster
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| movinaround wrote: |
For the bolded part, I am not sure if you are making a judgement, but people without an MA can easily do the same in a ton of different ways. |
It is a judgment. I don't agree. And, I have not seen that "ton of different ways" in my 15 years of teaching EFL overseas. It IS different. There ARE different levels of professionalism. And that is okay. Not everyone needs a graduate degree and not every job will benefit from it. All I am suggesting is that it DOES take your ability to solve student problems to a higher level. Of course it would!
My intent is not to be "snobby" - but to express opinion just as you have expressed yours. I don't feel a need to defend myself beyond that. Take it as you wish. Name calling and characterisation don't further an argument, they only distract from it. |
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movinaround
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| tedkarma wrote: |
| movinaround wrote: |
For the bolded part, I am not sure if you are making a judgement, but people without an MA can easily do the same in a ton of different ways. |
It is a judgment. I don't agree. And, I have not seen that "ton of different ways" in my 15 years of teaching EFL overseas. It IS different. There ARE different levels of professionalism. And that is okay. Not everyone needs a graduate degree and not every job will benefit from it. All I am suggesting is that it DOES take your ability to solve student problems to a higher level. Of course it would!
My intent is not to be "snobby" - but to express opinion just as you have expressed yours. I don't feel a need to defend myself beyond that. Take it as you wish. Name calling and characterisation don't further an argument, they only distract from it. |
Whoa, slow down. I am not name calling at all. I said it seems snobby. I did NOT call you a snob, nor say you were snobby. I know these forums can seem advesarial, but that was not my intention, and I had thought I had made that clear. I am not asking you to defend yourself, just your argument.
I have met several people who have read up on the areas they teach and asked for guidance from people with higher knowledge (I won't say qualifications there, because no matter what, qualifications only shows a better chance of having more knowledge on a subject, not that they automatically do). Also, some people only have a bachelors in linguistics or TESOL, and tend to be on par with people with an Applied Linguistics or TESOL MA if in the same area of study. Those are just two.
I don't understand what you mean by "there are different levels of professionalism"? An 18 year old high school graduate can be more of a "professional" than a 50 year old PHd teacher, though he would be at a significant disadvantage in knowledge. But that professional "highschool grad" teacher would then try to upgrade themselves and become a better teacher (hopefully throughout their whole life), while the PHd teacher might have just done it for a better job with better vacation (don't tell me some MAs don't do that) and hasn't got a shred of "professionalism" in him/her. |
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tedkarma
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 1598
Location: The World is my Oyster
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| movinaround wrote: |
I don't understand what you mean by "there are different levels of professionalism"? |
In this context "professionalism" means the application of advanced skills to solve problems. I meant it in a fairly narrow scope. People with a good understanding of learning theory and educational psychology will probably (you may disagree though) have better ability to analyze and resolve problems their students are having. I don't mean just that students, for example, aren't "getting" present perfect (just to keep the issue basic). I mean where does that fit in the overall curriculum and why and perhaps what needs to be learned sequentially before that, and even after that to keep it in long-term memory and to REALLY learn it and generalize the skill versus just memorizing it and only being able to apply it in one context.
Now, I am sure there are some people who can do an excellent job with that with only a third grade education - but my guess would be that the number of people who can do that in a skilled manner that will really benefit their students, increases with the level and relevance of their education.
It wasn't meant to apply to personal behavior or motivation.
I may have used the term "professionalism" in too narrow of a definition. |
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movinaround
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| tedkarma wrote: |
| movinaround wrote: |
I don't understand what you mean by "there are different levels of professionalism"? |
In this context "professionalism" means the application of advanced skills to solve problems. I meant it in a fairly narrow scope. People with a good understanding of learning theory and educational psychology will probably (you may disagree though) have better ability to analyze and resolve problems their students are having. I don't mean just that students, for example, aren't "getting" present perfect (just to keep the issue basic). I mean where does that fit in the overall curriculum and why and perhaps what needs to be learned sequentially before that, and even after that to keep it in long-term memory and to REALLY learn it and generalize the skill versus just memorizing it and only being able to apply it in one context.
Now, I am sure there are some people who can do an excellent job with that with only a third grade education - but my guess would be that the number of people who can do that in a skilled manner that will really benefit their students, increases with the level and relevance of their education.
It wasn't meant to apply to personal behavior or motivation.
I may have used the term "professionalism" in too narrow of a definition. |
No, I agree with all of that. I was wondering about the scope you were using for that word. And while I will start doing my MA shortly (as I feel it will help me grow as a teacher) and consider them the next step for any who can afford to do them (not everybody can), I have met a lot of academic "elitists" (my word) whom have massive chips on their shoulders and tend to get on my nerves. Everything you said is correct, and people should always go for an MA if they stay in this field for any amount of time (conditions permitting), but an MA should never be lorded over other people. It's just that the word is usually used with a much broader scope  |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: |
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dmb wrote:
the MA is purely an academic qualification,
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No I didn't. I was quoting Chris. And what I meant was that not all MAs are purely academic pursuits. They can be practical as well as theoretical. I am not saying one is better than the other, but only there are different MAs. |
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tedkarma
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 1598
Location: The World is my Oyster
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| movinaround wrote: |
| an MA should never be lorded over other people. It's just that the word is usually used with a much broader scope |
Agreed. Nothing about one's good fortune and ability to have or do anything in life should be "lorded over other people". But, also, one should not have to apologize for intellect and a good education either.
I can't understand why so many people who teach p*ss on the idea of a good education (I am not pointing the finger at you). Just makes sense to me that educaTORS should support educaTION. But, hey, that's just me!
And, uh . . . my apologies to DMB for misquoting you when it should have referenced Chris. |
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movinaround
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| tedkarma wrote: |
| movinaround wrote: |
| an MA should never be lorded over other people. It's just that the word is usually used with a much broader scope |
Agreed. Nothing about one's good fortune and ability to have or do anything in life should be "lorded over other people". But, also, one should not have to apologize for intellect and a good education either.
I can't understand why so many people who teach p*ss on the idea of a good education (I am not pointing the finger at you). Just makes sense to me that educaTORS should support educaTION. But, hey, that's just me!
And, uh . . . my apologies to DMB for misquoting you when it should have referenced Chris. |
Ya, I am not, IN ANY WAY, supporting anyone who thinks that any amount of education, let alone a highly focused and intensive thing as an MA or PHd, is useless or not worth it (especially if you have the money and time). I try not to get angry at the ones who do though, as they may have had the ability to intellectually do it and preseverance (sp?), but just didn't have the financial ability. I understand why they would be angry about it and try to downplay it. They are wrong, but still... The ones who do have degrees are the ones I don't understand, who say they are useless. One has to wonder just how much work they put in and where they studied... ???
Obviously, most people don't put down people who don't have degrees just because they have one, but I have met a few (from the Bachelor's to PHd), and they bother me. |
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mep3
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: ... |
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tedkarma wrote:
"People with a good understanding of learning theory and educational psychology will probably (you may disagree though) have better ability to analyze and resolve problems their students are having."
I think that education is very valuable, but I don't think it's the only way, and I don't think those people's skills are necessarily better, although it's really true that there's a tendency to look down on and unfairly stereotype the book-learned as "elitists." It's like the cop who's been on the beat for thirty years versus the one with the Master's from Harvard. Or like "book learning versus street smarts.." They know different things and bring different things to the table. Maybe you could say the person with both is the best qualified, but I don't even think that's necessarily true. Some teachers for example have great natural abilities, and they've collected a lot of knowledge through their years of teaching. I just don't think it needs to be an either-or, "experience versus education." Moreover, there are lots of kinds of education. A good teacher is presumably reading books/articles, talking with other teachers, constantly learning in a variety of ways, accumulating knowledge over time and testing it in class.. Just my opinion.. Mep |
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wildchild
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 519
Location: Puebla 2009 - 2010
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Ted said:
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| Just makes sense to me that educaTORS should support educaTION. But, hey, that's just me! |
Well, of course!
If not, how could you justify charging your students so much money? 
I, too, need to eat, so I keep telling myself, "I support education, I support education, I support..." 
But when it comes to giving my lunch money away to a University in exchange for new credentials, when I know that they are in the same business as I, that of supporting education so as to fill one's own rice bowl, I'd rather keep my lunch money. 
The Profs. won't starve, there are plenty others who will gladly "support education." |
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tedkarma
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 1598
Location: The World is my Oyster
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| wildchild wrote: |
Ted said:
| Quote: |
| Just makes sense to me that educaTORS should support educaTION. But, hey, that's just me! |
Well, of course!
If not, how could you justify charging your students so much money?
I, too, need to eat, so I keep telling myself, "I support education, I support education, I support..."
But when it comes to giving my lunch money away to a University in exchange for new credentials, when I know that they are in the same business as I, that of supporting education so as to fill one's own rice bowl, I'd rather keep my lunch money.
The Profs. won't starve, there are plenty others who will gladly "support education." |
The sad thing that becomes clear from such comments as the ones above is that there is rarely, if ever, ANY recognition that something MIGHT BE LEARNED in an educational setting. That ones skills or knowledge might be increased in some sort of useful way.
Turn your argument around. WHY should your students sit in YOUR class? Only to enrich you? Why are you a teacher? Just to strip money from your students?
Why would you encourage students to attend the school where you teach? Or would you?
What a sad and discouraging outlook on education.
If you want only to "Fill your own rice bowl" there are FAR more lucrative occupations than education. |
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