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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| unlike Korea, China, and Taiwan, there is no real economic incentive for increasing the percentage of English speakers here. Japanese companies are currently killing their foreign competitors |
I'm not a businessman, so I don't know about such a killing, but I would have to say that if this is the attitude taken by Japanese, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Both feet.
The lingua franca of science is English, and the Japanese know this. They are far behind on Nobel prizes, and recently ex-PM Mori's admninstration proposed 50 Nobel prizes (or something like that) from Japanese in the near future. Some unbelievable date. Part of that was due to learning more English, if I recall correctly.
Dealing with science means sharing information, and the Japanese are not known for that, whether in reported papers or corporate patents, and this, I feel, is hurting everyone. So, if the Japanese are somehow killing their competitors in business by outdoing them, they are still falling far behind in the science world (in general). |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Gah! I feel like I'm howling into the wind... |
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| taikibansei wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
| If the entrance exams are improving, that's great. However, it doesn't seem to be having much of a trickle down effect yet. |
I guess I'm not the only one to have been "skimming" posts.... From my first post on this thread:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?p=504873&highlight=#504873
| Quote: |
| Third, I'd put teeth back into the entrance exam system. Right now, due to demographic issues I've discussed before, you don't have to do well on these exams to matriculate--indeed, you can get into many universities scoring as low as 30% on the tests. What makes this so problematic? The exams have changed over the last 15 years--now emphasizing in most cases analytical reading, listening and writing skills--but high school education has not. And why should it? The students still pass; indeed, they pass now at higher rates than ever. Establishing, and enforcing, minimum scores would force high schools to change their methodologies as well. |
A study on this topic (the bibliography lists others):
http://www.jalt-publications.org/tlt/articles/2001/07/mulvey
And now, I'm done with this thread. |
Eh? Why the "skimming posts" comment? I was just adding my comments to yours. I had no intention of implying that you believed the opposite of what I was posting. |
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slodziak
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Just to add my two cents worth:
Regarding the English ability of young Japanese learners of English: I would concur that the amount of money spent doesn�t justify the result. In my opinion the most worrying thing for the Japanese should be that they are losing ground to their local competitors i.e. China and Korea. While not brilliant the English spoken by youngsters in those countries is of a better fluency and a more confident nature than of kids the same age in Japan. My reason for saying this comes from my experience of working in UK summer schools where Chinese and Koreans always seem to do a better job of 1) speaking English and 2) integrating themselves with other nationalities. There are of course exceptions and some Japanese can spectacularly buck this rule but as a generalisation it reflects my experience and that of others. I feel sure that if I sent some of my best Japanese students to a UK Summer School they would find themselves among the lower ability groups.
Surely if Japan wants to remain competitive it has to address this point � or am I missing the point?
Regarding the death of the native English teacher in Japan: I have proof that it is government policy, at least in public schools. My wife is working on a new government sponsored programme of lessons for Shibuya Ku elementary schools which is being put together to increase the effectiveness of the homeroom teacher and remove the necessity of the native language assistant. Basically she is creating 45-minute lessons that have their methodology based in the Communicative Approach and use an easy to follow system that Japanese teachers will only need a weekend of workshops to feel comfortable with. Will it work? You can predict for yourselves but expect to see a decline in the number of native English speakers in Shibuya Ku public elementary schools over the next couple of years. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Anyway, this thread seems to have kicked up a bit of a hornet's nest. It was originally a spin-off from the JET thread where there was an arguement about the value of JET. Some thought that JETs themselves were the biggest beneficiaries of the JET program. I just wondered, in general, who benefits the most from the current system in Japan. And, in a larger sense, what the motivation for continuing the society-wide study of English is (particularly in the current style).
There have been some answers (pressure from companies who profit monetarily from the current system), but mostly things have degenerated into bickering over whether the system is mediocre, bad or very bad. I think there's general agreement about both the problems with the system and what needs to be done to improve the system, so there's not much point continuing to run around that tree.
My apologies to anyone who may have been offended by my comments. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Dealing with science means sharing information, and the Japanese are not known for that, whether in reported papers or corporate patents, and this, I feel, is hurting everyone. So, if the Japanese are somehow killing their competitors in business by outdoing them, they are still falling far behind in the science world (in general). |
Have you noticed a higher level of English ability amongs scientists than amongst the general population? I imagine that their practical need for English would probably result in higher ability levels. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| slodziak wrote: |
Just to add my two cents worth:
Regarding the English ability of young Japanese learners of English: I would concur that the amount of money spent doesn�t justify the result. In my opinion the most worrying thing for the Japanese should be that they are losing ground to their local competitors i.e. China and Korea. While not brilliant the English spoken by youngsters in those countries is of a better fluency and a more confident nature than of kids the same age in Japan. My reason for saying this comes from my experience of working in UK summer schools where Chinese and Koreans always seem to do a better job of 1) speaking English and 2) integrating themselves with other nationalities. There are of course exceptions and some Japanese can spectacularly buck this rule but as a generalisation it reflects my experience and that of others. I feel sure that if I sent some of my best Japanese students to a UK Summer School they would find themselves among the lower ability groups.
Surely if Japan wants to remain competitive it has to address this point � or am I missing the point?
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I agree with this, and it reflects my experiences teaching immersion programs in Canada. The bottom levels were always full of Japanese and it was rare to find them in the upper levels. I felt like it took a good 6 months for students to stop trying to translate everything and to become comfortable interacting directly with English.
It's also important to note that Koreans (and especially Chinese) have not been studying English for nearly as long as the Japanese have (at a society level, that is). As well, it's been my impression that Koreans have much more confidence in their ability to learn English and the focus in Korea seems to be on society's actual practical English ability. Korean test scores are now regularly above Japanese and the Koreans have designed their own version of TOEIC to reflect the English that is required of the typical Korean businessperson.
This topic has come up in my school, but the teachers seem to feel that Korea's improving results are a result of their more outgoing personalities than from any practical differences. |
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slodziak
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Mark wrote
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| This topic has come up in my school, but the teachers seem to feel that Korea's improving results are a result of their more outgoing personalities than from any practical differences. |
I don't know if any scientific research has been done to support this hypothesis but my gut feeling is that the teachers at your school are probably right. Having said that I am sure it is possible to encourage confidence.
I am taking about 16 Japanese University students on a study trip to Poland this summer, they will be working with homeless kids in Warsaw and spending a couple of days with students from the University in Krakow. The idea is to give the Japanese a chance to do something completely different but also get them interacting with other L2 speakers of English in a practical environment. If prepared properly, by the end of the trip the students should feel more confident in their ability to speak English. It is quite probable that when they go in to business or academia that most of their English will be used with non-native speakers - people's confidence does tend to increase when they are speaking with someone who may have as much difficulty with the L2 as they do. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| slodziak wrote: |
Mark wrote
| Quote: |
| This topic has come up in my school, but the teachers seem to feel that Korea's improving results are a result of their more outgoing personalities than from any practical differences. |
I don't know if any scientific research has been done to support this hypothesis but my gut feeling is that the teachers at your school are probably right. Having said that I am sure it is possible to encourage confidence. |
Yeah, I'm sure confidence is a factor. But I think that the teachers I work with are too quick to dismiss the success of others based on the "Japanese are shy" idea.
| slodziak wrote: |
I am taking about 16 Japanese University students on a study trip to Poland this summer, they will be working with homeless kids in Warsaw and spending a couple of days with students from the University in Krakow. The idea is to give the Japanese a chance to do something completely different but also get them interacting with other L2 speakers of English in a practical environment. If prepared properly, by the end of the trip the students should feel more confident in their ability to speak English. It is quite probable that when they go in to business or academia that most of their English will be used with non-native speakers - people's confidence does tend to increase when they are speaking with someone who may have as much difficulty with the L2 as they do. |
Sounds like that would be a great experience for them, although I wonder if the students would be emotionally prepared to interact with homeless kids in Warsaw. You must have some pretty mature students.
But, certainly, interacting with other L2 speakers is great. Many Japanese seem to view English as a national, rather than international, language and get hung up on the whole "speaking like a native" thing. I think many of them have never seen other nationalities struggling with English. And, English levels being what they are in Poland, they'll see lots of people struggling  . |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:27 am Post subject: Okay, I was cranky when I wrote that about MEXT |
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Taikibansei wrote
Okay, I was unfair about objectives. There are objectives stated by MEXT in those documents.
I've seen the MEXT documents in English, too http://www.mext.go.jp/english/shotou/030301.htm
and http://www.mext.go.jp/english/news/2002/07/020901.htm
The 'courses of study' describe what is to be taught and when. I think these documents are well-intended, but not frequently shared with foreign English teachers. I had to hunt them down myself, and was pleased to find them in English. I think these are required reading for every ALT and English teacher in a public or private school.
The plans are quite thin, but at least they give some indication of what the government wants to see in the schools.
But do the schools want this? I don't know. Few English teachers I've met will talk to me about curricula, benchmarks, and predicted outcomes for oral communication. Again, nobody I've met is interested in either prescriptive or descriptive benchmarks for Oral Communication.
Only two schools I've worked at in five years of teaching in Japan has made OC more than an exercise in keeping up the international image.
Mark wrote a while back about the Center Test: [url]1) Yes, there is a listening component. But, if my high school is any judge, the response to this has been to change nothing.[/url]
Same old wrote learning, same hoop-jumping in the English class. There is definitely a mismatch between the test creators and the high school staff. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Mark wrote:
| Quote: |
| Have you noticed a higher level of English ability amongs scientists than amongst the general population? I imagine that their practical need for English would probably result in higher ability levels. |
In my limited experience, yes. I would guess that the reason is the need to use it and the amount of exposure they get with journals and international conferences and meeting foreign scientists.
As for what taikibansei wrote about the reading speed, I'll just throw my hat in the ring and say I've personally conducted reading speed evaluations in high school (1st and 2nd year) as well as university (science majors, 1st and 3rd year) and found 80 words per minute on the low end and a rough average of 100-120 wpm. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
| The English ability acquired by students after 6 years of study is a poor return on the time/money invested in those 6 years of education. |
It's comparable to most other countries and better than quite a few.
If students need to learn the grammar to pass the entrance exams they do so. If students use English in their lives then they'll learn quickly. If students view English as an annoying class that is of no benefit to them then they won't learn much and will ditch it at the earliest opportunity.
Same as anywhere else and, as I said earlier, the results are arguably better that in Britain or the US where students study a far more similar language to their own to be used in cultures which are closer to them both culturally and geographically.
Later on students who ditched English and then went into businesses where TOEIC scores were used as promotional devices (the vast minority), will study at an eikaiwa, possibly at the companys expense and up until fairly recently with huge government subsidies.
Eikaiwa numbers have dropped since the government stopped lining the pockets of the eikaiwa, and now often focus on teaching kids for their profits.
Canadians and Brits learning French is very different for the reasons stated above. Canada is partly a French speaking country for one thing!
I can see Japanese language education shifting from English to Mandarin over the next few decades. It will arguably be of more practical benefit if the expected economic shift occurs. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
| The English ability acquired by students after 6 years of study is a poor return on the time/money invested in those 6 years of education. |
It's comparable to most other countries and better than quite a few. |
It is? Which ones? Yes, there are countries with equally bad levels of English. But there are countries that put a similar amount of time/money into English and get similar results?
| womblingfree wrote: |
If students need to learn the grammar to pass the entrance exams they do so. If students use English in their lives then they'll learn quickly. If students view English as an annoying class that is of no benefit to them then they won't learn much and will ditch it at the earliest opportunity. |
Agreed.
| womblingfree wrote: |
Same as anywhere else and, as I said earlier, the results are arguably better that in Britain or the US where students study a far more similar language to their own to be used in cultures which are closer to them both culturally and geographically. |
True, I'm sure the results are better than the US or UK. But, I still think that studying a foreign national language and studying an international language are completely different things.
Forcing British children to study French makes absolutely no sense at all. They'd probably be better off learning British Sign Language. Or Scottish/Welsh/Irish. Or the basics of a variety of languages. Being able to ask for directions in ten national languages is probably more useful than being able to talk about politics in one.
The main advantage of studying French is that English spelling makes a lot more sense afterwards. Of course, this benefit doesn't apply in the US as they changed their spelling.
| womblingfree wrote: |
Later on students who ditched English and then went into businesses where TOEIC scores were used as promotional devices (the vast minority), will study at an eikaiwa, possibly at the companys expense and up until fairly recently with huge government subsidies.
Eikaiwa numbers have dropped since the government stopped lining the pockets of the eikaiwa, and now often focus on teaching kids for their profits. |
Although the fact that parents are willing to spend enormous sums of money on these kiddy eikaiwa programs must mean that they place a reasonable amount of importance on learning English.
| womblingfree wrote: |
Canadians and Brits learning French is very different for the reasons stated above. Canada is partly a French speaking country for one thing!
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Yes and no. Brits learning French is completely different because they are learning a foreign national language that will only be of benefit to them if they try to function in French-language society. International dealings will be conducted in English.
As for Canada, it's more similar than you might think. There are lots of jobs that require you to have a certain level of French ability, so there are lots of people who study French because it's required for their job. Same with Quebecois studying English.
| womblingfree wrote: |
I can see Japanese language education shifting from English to Mandarin over the next few decades. It will arguably be of more practical benefit if the expected economic shift occurs. |
Yeah, that would make a lot of sense. Actually, you'd think the most sensible thing would be to try to have a reasonable number of people proficient in the various major languages of the world rather than forcing everyone to study English. As well as to put more resources into promoting the study of Japanese abroad.
English is the biggest international language, but it's not a global lingua franca and will probably never be. It's become a lingua franca (more or less) in western europe and a few other places. For example, Scandinavians from different regions will often just speak English together rather than try to puzzle out everyone's dialect. It's also become a lingua franca amongst the global elite. But I highly doubt it will ever as the average person's lingua franca outside of those areas mentioned. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
| womblingfree wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
| The English ability acquired by students after 6 years of study is a poor return on the time/money invested in those 6 years of education. |
It's comparable to most other countries and better than quite a few. |
It is? Which ones? Yes, there are countries with equally bad levels of English. But there are countries that put a similar amount of time/money into English and get similar results? |
I'm talking about the amount of time spent formally studying a language at high school compared to the end result.
As I said before British learn French for about eight years with results arguably worse than Japanese learning English, despite the fact that English and French have far more in common.
I wouldn't say that Japan is particularly worse than any other country where students are made to study another language. There are exceptions, but not that many.
Those that go on to learn a language in any country will be the people that actually practically need to. Students learn the language they need, if they don't need it and don't want it they they won't learn it.
As far as private education goes Korean "hogwan' and Chinese private language schools have a lot in common with the eikaiwa model, as do dodgy private 'schools' all over the world. Same reliance on outdated methodology, Western dominance and corporate outlook. |
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zorro (3)
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| British learn French for about eight years with results arguably worse than Japanese learning English, despite the fact that English and French have far more in common. |
I'm English and I didn't learn French for anywhere near 8 years. I'm 29 by the way. In fact it was more like 2 years of 2 hours a week (in secondary school) and 2 years of 1 hour a week (in primary school). I don't think the situation in England is comparable to that of Japan. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| zorro (3) wrote: |
| I'm English and I didn't learn French for anywhere near 8 years. I'm 29 by the way. |
I'm English and I had to do English on and off from eight till 16.
Foreign languages are a second level foundation subject in the UK, meaning they are supposed to be compulsory for all the time you're in secondary education.
That's 11-16, but some schools start in primary school.
Dunno how you ended up only doing 2 years?
It's about the same amount of time Japanese kids study English, except we don't even seem to be able to manage the grammar, let alone speaking. |
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