Job Discussion Forums

[denise]

Do you guys/gals feel uncomfortable at all when your students tell you things about the other teachers? I can think of a couple of occasions that made me uncomfortable:

1) a student doing intensive one-to-one courses told me that, when one of his other teachers bent forward, he could see her *beep*. Not wanting to betray the student, I chose not to say anything (which I now see as the wrong decision--I know I would certainly want to be told!). The teacher in question was a friend, and it wouldn't have been too hard to say anything...

2) in China, several of my students came up to me after class one day to tell me that they didn't like one of the other teachers, and they wanted fewer hours with her. The course was only a four-week course, and by this point it was half finished, everyone's schedule was set, etc. I told the director, not the teacher, and, as I had expected, nothing was done... I was happy that the students trusted me enough to tell me, but uncomfortable because I could have been the bearer of bad news.

There have been other instances--offhand comments, etc., and I generally don't pass on what the students have said. (There are, of course, cases in which student confidentiality should be overriden, like when one of our students mentioned to another teacher that he was thinking of killing himself...)

What sorts of things should be reported/repeated, and what should not be? I feel equally loyal to my students and to my colleagues.

d

[MartinK]

...

[Wolf]

An interesting problem. I feel that I can't help but sound like Polonius, so I may as well go whole hog:

This above all else, to thine own self be true.

There are some cases when it hardly matters (some of my students had a hard time understanding a previous foreign expert's accent.) There are some cases where keeping quiet is the best (ie students' personal problems.) There are some cases when the situation is very serious. What would I do, for example, if a female student confided in me that her boyfriend/husband/whatever was abusive? Or if I were a teacher and suspected child abuse? It would really depend upon the details of the situation, and if I thought that I honestly would be doing good to speak out.

There are other cases, though, when one just has to take a dig at MartinK. A raise? By snitching in a summer school that's over in five minutes? According to The Beginner's Guide to Snitching Your Way to EFL Sucess in East Asia, snitching will bring you less tangible rewards like a good schedule, promotions, proirity for days off, etc. Also, guideline 34 paragraph 16 subection 4 clearly states: "Trying to do the right thing after some soul searching is not likely to earn you any monetary gain, especially where short term or part time work is concerned. The real benefits of amoral behavior come from properly executed backstabbing in full time, longer term positons. Bragging about your sucess on public forums is discouraged."

[denise]

[Roger]

Who are we to decide whether the student(s) is/are right?
Their judgment is as personal as ours; they are less mature and a lot more self-centred.
It's a mark of respect, perhaps, that we are chosen to lend our ears to them; it can backfire too.
Students should never be trusted more than our own colleagues!
Don't make yourself the purveyor of poll findings!

[denise]

Just to clarify--

The teacher in question was, ahem, not particularly stellar. She was a bit set in her ways, and, judging by her comments, seemed to view the students as obstacles to her plans. (She would say things like, "I don't care if they complain... I'm not changing the lessons.") Which of course may be perfectly valid, given that oh-so-many students do not know how to learn languages. But--she was teaching geography and western civilization to teenage and young adult students enrolled in an intensive conversation course. (?!?!?!? WTF?!?) My class, the class that complained, were high beginners. I observed her, to get a feel for her style, and found her drilling vocabulary terms such as "irrigation system"--to students who could barely tell you their names!

I did not rat on her. I approached the director and said something like, "I am terribly sorry to bother you, and I feel very awkward about this, but some of my students said..." I asked him whether or not we should approach the teacher, and he and I both agreed that it would be pointless, given the constraints of the course (the limited time-table) and the unlikeliness that she would be receptive to students' critiques.

So, as to whether or not the students are "right"--honestly, I'd have to say that in this case they were.

d

[scot47]

Denise

The sad truth is that sometimes students DO know better how to learn than some of the so-called experts sent to teach them.

In my experience the most dogmatic teachers when it comes to Foreign Language Pedagogy are those with little personal experience of foreign language learning, and those who have just finished a course on TEFL.

Combine the two and you have a real threat to the school !

[johnslat]

Dear denise,
Amen to what scot47 said -I recall an instance where a teacher was " cheating " ( i.e. giving the students in HIS class the answers to the Final Exam ). The only way this was discovered was that some of the STUDENTS thought this was wrong and reported it to another of their teachers. I also remember cases where a teacher wasn't following the syllabus AT ALL - just going in there and doing whatever he felt like. When students tell you things, it's wise to check them out. MartinK was, in my opinion, WAY off-base in what he posted.
Regards,
John

[scot47]

MartinK with his talk of snitches and stool-pigeons sounds like he is teaching in Sing Sing. Those of us in rather nicer institutions may have a slightly different mindset.

If a teacher is obviously breaking the rules then it is your professional duty to do something, but then "professional" and TEFL do not rhyme. Or do they ?

[guest of Japan]

Well this certainly is a touchy one. There is no answer that everyone will find right. There probably isn't even an answer that will satisfy one person all of the time.

Although Martin K's reaction was a bit strong I felt a similar reaction when I read the initial post. As it was clarified later, my feelings on the matter became a little more fuzzy. Johnslat and Scot47 both contributed some irrefutable ideas. And of course, wolf was quite funny.

My opinion is that you need to balance the needs of the students with the harmony of the school. You may be the best teacher in the world, but if you are insensitive the those who work with you then you will create a poisoned atmosphere in which no one will want to work, which will lead to a fall-off in lesson quality. At the same time if your the most friendly, trustworthy, and sincere worker, but your lessons are not making the grade then you will have a negative effect on the school as well. Students will want to take classes with other teachers, so their work schedules will become harder, while the poor teacher is actually rewarded with an easy schedule for their incompetence.

Therefore each time a student tells you something in confidence you have to make a sound judgement. If a student confided in me about a teachers lesson, I'd first try to get as much detail as possible about why the student thinks it is deficient. Sometimes, by doing this I can actually rise to the defense of the teacher. Sometimes I recommend that the student voice their concerns to management. Sometimes I can garner enough information to help guide the teacher to improve their lessons. And sometimes if the effect of the teacher is severly detrimental to the student, the school or to me I do speak to the management myself.

The one thing I will never do is approach a teacher along with the management unless it is my job to do so. That looks like angling for power, or at the very least over-reaching your position.

As for the other situations, don't put a student in an embarassing situation. To use the cleavage example, don't tell the teacher that a student told you that they can see down her shirt. Instead just ask her on a day when she is wearing a particulary risky outfit, "Don't you ever worry about students looking down you shirt when you hand them stuff in class?"

Well it's late. Feel free to disagree.

[johnslat]

Dear guest of Japan,
All good points you made there, I'd say. Now, let me go out on a limb here and be ( gasp ) honest. Speaking only from my own experience ( and maybe from my oversized ego ), I know that, in the workplaces I've been in, I've formed " opinions " about most of my colleagues' teaching abilities. Perhaps many of you do this as well; I really don't know. But if I'm instructing the same class as a teacher whom I consider to be a good one, I'll most likely tend to take many " student complaints " with more than a grain of salt, and will, in fact, usually tell the complaining student that Mr / Ms X is, in my opinion, a fine teacher. If, however, I hear a complaint about a teacher whom I believe to be less than professional, then I'd be much more likely to 1. try to first look into it on my own; 2. speak to the teacher him/herself about it. Then, and only then, if the situation is serious enough and if it looks as though the complaint might be valid, would I likely bring it to the attention of the Director. So yes - " sound judgment " IS most definitely required, for " complaints " can range from downright lies uttered by disgruntled students to revelations about improper classroom practices. It's a situational kind of issue; there's no " only right way " to handle such matters. How one does so will depend on far too many variables.
Regards,
John

[guest of Japan]

Thanks Johnslat.

As usual you say things better than me. In the future I will either have to refer all readers of my posts to your pm box for more clearly worded ideas, or go back to primary school for a Jesuit education.

[Lynn]

I was more shocked with Martink's response than Denises's post. When I was in college I worked at the tutoring center. Our college had a huge ESL program and this tutoring center was connected with it. I heard a lot from the students. One day a level one Japanese girl came in for help. She seemed a little nervous at first, but by the time the session was over she relaxed. She told me in her broken English that I was a very patient tutor and she felt very comfortable with me. I said,"Well, of us here at the tutoring center are patient. That's our job!" I smiled and gave her pat on the back or something. Then she said,"No, not all. Kathy is not! Kathy laughed at me and said that book my textbook was stupid. And she wouldn't help me."

I was taken aback. "uh...oh, I'm really sorry to hear that."

"She shouldn't do that to the ESL students. We come here for help; not to be laughed at."

"I know, what she did was wrong."

"Well, what will you do about it? Will you tell your boss?" she said. I didn't know how to respond. I didn't even want to get involved. But this student was practically in tears and what she said about Kathy was unfortunately quite believable. Kathy had no patience with level one students and even told us it was a waste of her time.

So, I sat down with my boss and told her the situation. I was so nervous. I was only 18. The boss seemed pretty unimpressed. "Okay, thanks for telling me, Lynn." She said sheepishly and sarcastically.

A month or so later, I saw Kathy working at a coffe stand. I asked what happened. She said,"oh, I was getting so tired of working at that tutoring center. Beside, this job is way better and the tips are great!" She said with a smile as the next customer approached.

(the pay at the tutoring center was $6.10/an hour)