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slodziak
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
Location: Tokyo
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 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm English. 30. I studied French from 11-16, 5 years. That would seem to be the same as most of my contemporaries. I don't know of anyone who studied French for 8 years. When was the 8-year plan introduced into the curriculum? |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| slodziak wrote: |
| I'm English. 30. I studied French from 11-16, 5 years. That would seem to be the same as most of my contemporaries. I don't know of anyone who studied French for 8 years. When was the 8-year plan introduced into the curriculum? |
5 to 6 years is compulsory. Some schools do more, that's not compulsory. |
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slodziak
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I see. |
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zorro (3)
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| When was the 5-6 years made compulsory? Obviously after I left school. We had options for our GCSEs. We could choose to do or not to do a modern language. I chose not to. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| zorro (3) wrote: |
| When was the 5-6 years made compulsory? Obviously after I left school. We had options for our GCSEs. We could choose to do or not to do a modern language. I chose not to. |
I think it's been compulsory at secondary schools for years?
I'm 34 and it was compulsory until I was 16. |
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ironopolis
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
As I said before British learn French for about eight years with results arguably worse than Japanese learning English, despite the fact that English and French have far more in common.
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This is wrong in several ways. It was true until a few years ago that British students had to study a foreign language in Key Stages 3 and 4 of the National Curriculum - in other words from year 7 to year 11 of secondary school, which makes 5 years of compulsary study not 8.
And anyway, a few years ago, the key stage 4 requirement was dropped, meaning that now only 3 years compulsary study is required.
The other big problem with the above comparison is that the requirement for British secondary school students is to study a foreign language , and that's any foreign language. So it's not necessarily French at all. French is the most commonly studied, but many, many students would've instead studied German, Spanish or perhaps Urdu amongst others as their compulsary foreign language bit, largely depending on where they went to school. The secondary school where I used to teach for example, had exactly 50% of the year 7 intake studying German, the rest divided between Urdu and French.
Also, a lot of schools offered students the chance to take up a second foreign language in year 8 or 9. They could, if they wished, drop the initial language they'd studied from year 7 for years 10 and 11, and just continue with their second one. That would mean they ended up with possibly only 3 years study of that language.
As a former foreign languages teacher in Britain myself, I do think that the UK has a very poor record at learning languages, for a variety of reasons, some acceptable, some not. But a comparison with Japan, where students ALL learn the SAME foreign language for SIX years, is way off base. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| As I said before British learn French for about eight years with results arguably worse than Japanese learning English, despite the fact that English and French have far more in common. |
| ironopolis wrote: |
| It was true until a few years ago that British students had to study a foreign language in Key Stages 3 and 4 of the National Curriculum - in other words from year 7 to year 11 of secondary school, which makes 5 years of compulsary study not 8. |
Yes, please read on...we clarified that 5 was compulsory but that some schools start earlier.
| ironopolis wrote: |
| And anyway, a few years ago, the key stage 4 requirement was dropped, meaning that now only 3 years compulsary study is required. |
Really? Kids don't start until 13??? I would have thought that most schools would choose to teach for longer than this? That's like the government proclaiming that foreign languages have a dwindling significance for students when the opposite is true.
| ironopolis wrote: |
| The other big problem with the above comparison is that the requirement for British secondary school students is to study a foreign language , and that's any foreign language. |
Students will study the languages that are most appropriate to their situation. Nationally this is more likely to be French than anything else by quite a distance.
Many schools only offer German as an option to kids who are showing an aptitude for French. At my school kids can learn any language they like if we can get hold of the teachers. As most kids don't have much interest in languages it's usually French and they drop it like a hot potato asap.
The kids I've encountered that study Urdu are usually studying this because it's already their second language and often spoken at home.
| ironopolis wrote: |
| As a former foreign languages teacher in Britain myself, I do think that the UK has a very poor record at learning languages, for a variety of reasons, some acceptable, some not. But a comparison with Japan, where students ALL learn the SAME foreign language for SIX years, is way off base. |
Japanese kids can learn other languages as well, not sure where this stands in the curriculum but we had several kids studying Mandarin and a few doing Korean.
I've worked at Japanese and British high schools with Japanese kids having the upper hand in the general practical skills they've learned.
This is most probably because of the need for grammar skills to progress to university whereas most British kids have little incentive except to advance to particular subjects later on. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Japanese kids can learn other languages in addition to English, but they can't learn another language instead of English.
Well, I guess technically they are not required to study English in high school, but good luck to any kid who wants to find a school that will allow him to study something besides English.
And, of course, if you don't study English you can't go to university. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
Japanese kids can learn other languages in addition to English, but they can't learn another language instead of English.
Well, I guess technically they are not required to study English in high school...... |
Make your mind up. I think the only way to answer this is to get hold of the national curriculum.
As for not getting into university I'm not sure that's true if you have ability in another language which is accepted by that university. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
Japanese kids can learn other languages in addition to English, but they can't learn another language instead of English.
Well, I guess technically they are not required to study English in high school...... |
Make your mind up. I think the only way to answer this is to get hold of the national curriculum.
As for not getting into university I'm not sure that's true if you have ability in another language which is accepted by that university. |
I read somewhere that English is technically an elective subject in high school, but when I asked my school about this they had no idea. If it is an elective, it's an elective in name only.
That's why I said "technically", they're not required to study. But, of course, in reality they are.
I don't think universities accept other languages in the place of English. I believe that the English exam is mandatory. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
| I read somewhere that English is technically an elective subject in high school... |
Actually you're right, it isn't compulsory at all as far as the national curriculum goes, at least not for very long if at all.
This is a little known fact.
Students looking to study abroad could be better off learning the language of where they'll be studying, living or working. |
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Venti
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Kanto, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
I can see Japanese language education shifting from English to Mandarin over the next few decades. It will arguably be of more practical benefit if the expected economic shift occurs. |
I find this to be an interesting topic of discussion.
Wombling,
I'll start a new thread on this subject. If you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you shared some more detailed thoughts about it. I'd like to read everyone's thoughts on this.
Thanks
Here's the thread link:
www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?p=506613#506613 |
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gaijin4life
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 150
Location: Westside of the Eastside, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:16 am Post subject: |
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Mark wrote
`Who benefits from the current system of English education?`
[quote]
Easy to answer .. (as others have already mentioned)
1. Eikaiwas - with their disposible approach to teachers and teaching and where everything is ruled not by effective or successful teaching but by giving customers what they want and most importantly by making as much profit as possible and ofcourse, meeting sales/promo. targets.
2. Eikaiwa students* - who are conned into thinking that because they are paying money to respectable-looking people, they are actually `learning`English.
*exceptions to this are students who are already quite able, motivated self-starters who use the eikaiwa/JETs etc. as an aid rather than their sole means of studying English.
3. J high schools - who pay to have a genki foreigner running around the place for a year of so.
4. Possibly some h/s students may benefit if they are motivated to learn from whatever they are being taught and inspite of it.
5. Genki foreigners in search of an adventure in a foreign (- but not too foreign country)
So basically, in my just-a-little cynical view, everyone involved benefits as long as no-one is too serious about learning or teaching English. In that case, they must do it in spite of the current edn/English teaching facilities, certainly not via them.
It`s the same old thing that I see everyday, things are done `in the modified to be acceptable to the Japanese way.` Effectiveness and efficiency rate much lower down in the `what is important` criteria. That`s just the way it is.
On a positive note, Ive known students to become (very) able communicators in English, thought they have done it by making the most of opportunities out there, rather than through the general school education system.
*exceptions to this are students who are already quite able; motivated self-starters who use the eikaiwa as an aid rather than their sole means of studying English.
Peace out. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| And, of course, if you don't study English you can't go to university. |
It is actually not difficult to get into a Japanese university without studying English. Indeed, depending on your desired major, a large number of universities will either waive your English scores entirely or accept you regardless of your English scores. I worked for six years at a major national university where all students in engineering and the sciences had their English scores waived. The local prefectural university took students regardless of their English scores and, in nursing, regardless of their education backgrounds. (They actually offered special classes--taught by Japanese and always filled--for students who hadn't studied English in high school.) Of the two major private universities in the prefecture, only one made English study a requirement for admission. This prefecture is not an exception, by the way.
If someone wants to get into a top university (e.g., Todai), one of the English-only universities, or enter one of the university programs which teach at least some subject courses in English, then high achievement on the tests is necessary. If someone wants to study an English-related major (or really anything in the Humanities), then having studied English is a requirement (though the actual test scores matter less). Even at some lesser universities, a few science and engineering programs also require past English study and some demonstration of ability--for the very reasons Glenski mentions.
For everybody else (i.e., the vast majority of students in this country), English is at best a distraction from what they really want to do. (Keep in mind that 45% of the population here does not attempt to go on to university ever.) You can argue all you want that this attitude is short-sighted, silly, brilliant, inspired, stupid, etc., but it won't change the reality.
Finally, there are a number of high schools offering Chinese (Monkasho keeps a list), and most universities offer 2-4 years of Chinese as well. Of course, nobody (teachers and students) takes these classes seriously either. Language study here is a joke, as womblingfree and I keep repeating, because most people do not feel a real need to learn an L2. Hence, it is indeed a similar situation to the UK and the US--the majority of citizens in all three countries could care less about learning a second language. The only difference is that it remains trendy to study--not master--English here. The majority of foreigners teaching in Japan should be thankful that this is the case...and hope it continues.
Back to work. |
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ironopolis
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| ironopolis wrote: |
| And anyway, a few years ago, the key stage 4 requirement was dropped, meaning that now only 3 years compulsary study is required. |
Really? Kids don't start until 13??? I would have thought that most schools would choose to teach for longer than this? |
Sorry, perhaps I didn't explain it clearly enough but you've misunderstood here and got that the wrong way round. Key Stage 3 refers to secondary years 7-9 (ages 11-14). Key Stage 4 means secondary years 10 and 11 - in other words ages 14-16 or the students' GCSE options. So Key Stage 4 being dropped means that the students start foreign language study at age 11, but may finish at age 14.
| womblingfree wrote: |
| ironopolis wrote: |
| The other big problem with the above comparison is that the requirement for British secondary school students is to study a foreign language , and that's any foreign language. |
Students will study the languages that are most appropriate to their situation. Nationally this is more likely to be French than anything else by quite a distance.
Many schools only offer German as an option to kids who are showing an aptitude for French. At my school kids can learn any language they like if we can get hold of the teachers. As most kids don't have much interest in languages it's usually French and they drop it like a hot potato asap.
The kids I've encountered that study Urdu are usually studying this because it's already their second language and often spoken at home. |
That's quite correct about Urdu and I never intended to suggest that it was widely studied, merely that it was another language which some students met their National Curriculum language study requirement with.
Your comment about German only being offered to kids good enough at French was indeed quite often the case a long time ago as German struggled to shake off the negative image many Britons had of Germans and their country. But in the early 1990s it was actually official policy in many areas, that French and German should have equal status as a foreign language taught in schools. As a result, many schools either had a wave system of one year's new intake all starting with German at the beginning of secondary school, the next year's intake French and so on; or other schools had half of the new intake doing French, the other half German.
Obviously, many schools struggled to find enough sufficiently qualified German teachers to effect such a policy, and as I said in my earlier post French IS indeed the most commonly studied foreign language. However, the point I was emphasizing is that, particularly for people under age 30, you'll find there are plenty for whom French was NOT the foreign language they studied the most at school; yes, this proportion will be a minority, but still one of significant size when you look at the past 10 - 15 years or so.
In Japan, on the other hand, if you ask pretty much anyone at all what their main foreign language at school was, it'll be English in 100% of cases, or very, very close to that.
If you're arguing the general point that Britain doesn't have much of a leg to stand if it is berating Japan's foreign language skills as it doesn't really do a lot better, then I'd agree that that's a very fair point. I just don't think that comparing French in Britain with English in Japan is a very good comparison.
| womblingfree wrote: |
Japanese kids can learn other languages as well, not sure where this stands in the curriculum but we had several kids studying Mandarin and a few doing Korean. |
Yes, you're right, SOME can. But it doesn't happen very often at all and it's certainly hardly ever the case that they would drop English for another language.
FWIW, my personal opinion, however, is that Japanese kids SHOULD be able to do this - study another foreign language instead of English if they wish. A decent standard in Chinese or Korean or even Russian would perhaps be more likely to prove useful sometime in their lives than woeful English, and might also give them a bit of self-esteem to have acquired a skill others don't have. There'd also be the additional benefit of encouraging better understanding and relations with neighbouring countries.
But it doesn't happen and this is a bit of a separate issue anyway.
| womblingfree wrote: |
I've worked at Japanese and British high schools........ |
When you say "worked", I presume you mean "taught". So may I ask, just out of interest, what subject did you teach in British high schools? |
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