|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
|
 Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Glenski wrote: |
| Gee, two people holding a conversation, and each doing it in the other's language. It may seem weird, but why is it stupid? |
That's a good question... I do this all the time when I meet a Mexican who has a level of English that roughly matches my Spanish ability. Each person wants to practice the other's language.
Why is that stupid? If you're talking, you're communicating. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It's stupid when it spoils real life communication and relationships with the general public and friends which im my experience it has and often. I'm talking about when a speaker really has no knowledge in the language and is still persistant to try and communicate with 'yes' and 'no' or very basic language. Are you telling me you have good conversations with somebody replying just yes or no to everything? How can your discussion progress if two people are not sharing the same progression that conversion naturally takes. If it was my 5 year old kid cool but I'm not speaking generally to kids - adults who talk about adult topics .
If somebody has better English than my Chinese I am the first to speak with them in English as I want to speak to this person as a person and build a relationship (even if it is 10 minutes) .
BTW -not generalising here . I know there are plenty of very nice Chinese who want to talk with you as a foreigner (albeit not too deep ) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Glenski wrote:
Gee, two people holding a conversation, and each doing it in the other's language. It may seem weird, but why is it stupid?
That's a good question... I do this all the time when I meet a Mexican who has a level of English that roughly matches my Spanish ability. Each person wants to practice the other's language.
Why is that stupid? If you're talking, you're communicating. |
And then there are cultural differences in each others natural spoken language discourse . Perhaps the Spanish cultural difference is not so far but doing this in Chinese ( And I would guess Japanese) is really not benefitting either person - just producing unnatural discourse .
Example - If I say to a Chinese 吃了马? Chi le ma ? Have you eaten? Which is a Chinese way of saying Hi he is going to start thinking in relation to his Chinese culture and the conversation is already not going to be very authentic if he starts thinking like this- in his culture.
Or I say to a Chinese 上那去? shang na qu - Where are you going ? a natural English speaker may well think , even reply - none of your damn business!! but it is just a greeting in Chinese.
I know these are basic examples and could be worked around but I really see the culture difference too large to be conversing like this especially if you want to improve and as I've said it does not aid reaching a higher personal level than if you are both using the same lingo.
Do you use this type of communication in Japan Glenski when you speak with Japanese? I'm interested in how this practice benefits anyone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Thanks Jzer . And the relationship between the speaker suffers because of this but saving face comes before relationship . Part of the reason I don't bother with some Chinese (youth) is that I know as soon as I speak Chinese they answer me in English , and purposely avoid using Chinese . |
Well, one important aspect here is the cultural phenomenon of saving face in Asia. I doubt that one has as many problems in other parts of the world, trying to get people to speak their language to you.
On another note, I just spent two hours speaking only Korean to some Koreans. I am currently traveling around India and am meeting many Koreans. I am speaking Korean and German almost everyday. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
sheeba wrote:
| Quote: |
And then there are cultural differences in each others natural spoken language discourse . Perhaps the Spanish cultural difference is not so far but doing this in Chinese ( And I would guess Japanese) is really not benefitting either person - just producing unnatural discourse .
Example - If I say to a Chinese 吃了马? Chi le ma ? Have you eaten? Which is a Chinese way of saying Hi he is going to start thinking in relation to his Chinese culture and the conversation is already not going to be very authentic if he starts thinking like this- in his culture.
Or I say to a Chinese 上那去? shang na qu - Where are you going ? a natural English speaker may well think , even reply - none of your damn business!! but it is just a greeting in Chinese.
I know these are basic examples and could be worked around but I really see the culture difference too large to be conversing like this especially if you want to improve and as I've said it does not aid reaching a higher personal level than if you are both using the same lingo.
Do you use this type of communication in Japan Glenski when you speak with Japanese? I'm interested in how this practice benefits anyone. |
sheeba, I really don't agree. If the other person can't make a sentence then yes, it is probably better if they just speak the language they know. (In your case Chinese). I really don't have a problem speaking Korean to someone and someone replying back in English if they can form comprehensible sentences. I would rather them speak in Korean but that would be selfish of me. Why should I be the one allowed to practice their language but they cannot practice mine? Once again to reiterate my feelings, if someone was really low level then they probably should try to communicate their point in their native language but if both people have some understand of the others language then each person speaking a different language is not such a big deal.
The one downfall to this is that both people are not getting any unput in the L2, which can be problematic since L2 learners often learn to forumlate correct sentences as a result of hearing others speak the language correctly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| It's stupid when it spoils real life communication and relationships with the general public and friends which im my experience it has and often. I'm talking about when a speaker really has no knowledge in the language and is still persistant to try and communicate with 'yes' and 'no' or very basic language. |
Sigh, why don't you clarify what you mean when you write something initially? I don't know about others here, but what you just wrote above was not what I had in mind when you wrote about holding a conversation with someone. Geez. Perhaps we 2 native English speakers need to get some things sorted out before even we can have a written conversation here! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear . If you read on a bit in thsi paragraph I thought you might have understood . See bold.
[/quote]Part of the reason I don't bother with some Chinese (youth) is that I know as soon as I speak Chinese they answer me in English , and purposely avoid using Chinese . Sometimes I stand there, me speaking Chinese , them English and it really is stupid. And that has nothing to do with them understanding me . I know I can hold myself in a conversation as these guys are answering my questions well enough but in English but they're giving me very basic one word answers like 'yes' and no , no no no ' - some of these guys can't get past yes and no but will still try and communicate in English. . It totally spoils the conversation and we just can't communicate properly or get to another level
| Quote: |
anyway let's not argue anymore about nothing . Unless you want to continue  |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Sorry if I didn't make myself clear . If you read on a bit in thsi paragraph I thought you might have understood . |
That was after a page and a half of other stuff you wrote that truly mislead people like myself.
Whatever. To get back to something you recently asked me:
| Quote: |
And then there are cultural differences in each others natural spoken language discourse .Perhaps the Spanish cultural difference is not so far but doing this in Chinese ( And I would guess Japanese) is really not benefitting either person - just producing unnatural discourse .
Example - If I say to a Chinese 吃了马? Chi le ma ? Have you eaten? Which is a Chinese way of saying Hi he is going to start thinking in relation to his Chinese culture and the conversation is already not going to be very authentic if he starts thinking like this- in his culture. |
Well, I understand something about your point of cultural differences, but looking at the red highlighted example above, I am confused. You want to converse in Chinese, so you not only speak in his language (ok), but you also try to get deeper into his cultural level by using some familiar expression (also ok), but then you tell us that this makes things worse? You lost me. I would think that would make him comfortable. How does it make the conversation any less "authentic"? What does that word mean?
| Quote: |
| I know these are basic examples and could be worked around but I really see the culture difference too large to be conversing like this |
Conversing like what? You have only mentioned two greetings that apparently sound totally natural to the Chinese person. You haven't gotten past that, and you are telling us that the whole conversation now is worthless for some reason. I don't get it.
| Quote: |
| Do you use this type of communication in Japan Glenski when you speak with Japanese? I'm interested in how this practice benefits anyone. |
All I can tell you is that whenever I use Japanese with locals, I adapt my American style of speech to the situation. If the situation requires that I use some honorific grammar, I try. If it doesn't, I'm just as casual as the next person. If I notice that the other person has altered his speech from the more formal to the more casual, then he/she must want things that way, so I play along. Pretty "authentic" as far as that goes.
I also realize that my level of Japanese is not perfect, and that the locals give us foreigners a lot of leeway in making mistakes. Most of the time, people do not correct me, but so what? If I make my point, that's good enough, and it shows that I'm trying to use their language.
If people want to ask me questions that overstep my American bounds of privacy, I tell them, or I make a joke about it. Many foreign men here get asked, "Do you like Japanese women?" within moments of meeting some people, for example.
You gotta roll with the punches on some things, too. I introduced myself to a group of high school students, asked if they had any questions, and one kid simply said, "Are you strong?" Bizarre question, and I was in a joking mood, so I told him, "Gee, I don't know. Let's see." And, we arm-wrestled. In a different class, one kid tried to be a smart-aleck by saying his hobby was watching porn movies, and as class was filing out, he asked me about the size of my genitals. Roll with it I did, and after letting his homeroom teacher know what he had done, I got a formal apology in the staff room from the kid and no more B.S. all year. My Japanese in-laws (including aunts and uncles) sometimes ask quirky questions, especially after a few beers, but am I going to take those as offensive and refuse to answer? Nope. They're family and have never been so close to a foreigner before.
Just yesterday, I was shopping in a supermarket. A woman offering free samples gave one to my son. I told her it was all right (in Japanese) and that I didn't want any. She had heard me speaking English to my son, so she began in English, and we chatted in English for 5 or 10 minutes. She felt comfortable that way, and so did I. Was that not an authentic or natural conversation?[/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| one kid simply said, "Are you strong?" Bizarre question, and I was in a joking mood, so I told him, "Gee, I don't know. Let's see." And, we arm-wrestled. |
did you win? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenski wrote: |
| one kid simply said, "Are you strong?" |
See, I would've answered, "Yes - but smell isn't everything." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| See, I would've answered, "Yes - but smell isn't everything." |
This is a good comeback but I don't know that the student would of understood it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Glenski . I'm not going to explain myself because for the most of it I agree with you .
When talking in just Chinese of course arriving at cultural levels of the target language enhances our understanding of one another.
When talking (one person in Chinese and one in English) I personally see this as hindering opportunity to get to that level (Sorry Jzer - I don't agree with you there but there you go !!) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
The idea that the cultural difference is somehow less significant with Spanish strikes me as weird. Obviously, both are European languages, but honestly, how foreign is foreign? Cultural differences abound. I haven't found that I have noticeably more in common culturally with Spanish speakers than with Asians.
I'll admit I find it annoying when people insist on answering my Spanish with their English, at least if their English isn't up to the task. And, although I know this isn't usually their intent, I bridle at the implication that, as a "gringo," I obviously want them to speak English. (My Spanish is fine, thank you.)
But these are my reactions. Nobody else's problem. If you're spending a lot of time worrying about what language somebody else speaks to you, for pete's sake find someone else to talk to! Or ask the person you're talking to (politely, mind) if they would mind sharing their lovely native language with you. They very well might be happy to.
But unless they are happy to, you have to understand- you DON'T have the right to tell somebody else what language to speak. So chill out. Even if their screwed up attempt at English is impeding YOUR communication- why are they supposed to give you what you want? Maybe they really want to experience the beauty of YOUR language.
Best,
Justin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| you DON'T have the right to tell somebody else what language to speak. So chill out. |
moi? I'm easy Justin!! 
You're quite right- You don't have the right and I've never tried to stop anyone . I just see that to get to a level with someone where you can share more intimate exchanges it really helps if we are both speaking the same language- and the one that allows best communication 。 Something very important that is hindered apart from cultural understanding is discourse specific to that language. We�re not allowing a deeper level of understanding by interchanging discourse and confusing the exchange that we need to effectively communicate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I just see that to get to a level with someone where you can share more intimate exchanges it really helps if we are both speaking the same language- and the one that allows best communication 。 |
Of course you are assuming that the person who is trying to talk to you wants a more intimate exchange. Maybe they just want to try to practice English? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
