Job Discussion Forums

[El Gallo]

I love Mexico but in Chiapas where I live, it seems most people have no concept of littering. In Tuxtla, people of all classes routinely toss beer cans, soda bottles, candy wrappers etc from their car windows onto the streets and highways. Sumidero Canyon, one of the State's tourism jewels, is choked by tons of trash from the streets of Tuxtla that washes into the Rio Sabinal, an open sewer that runs through the middle of the City and eventually winds up in the canyon. Chiapas is a very beautiful place but when one hikes down 800 steps into a canyon to see waterfalls, he or she is confronted with piles of disposable diapers, tortillas and beer bottles.

Is all Mexico like this? "?todos no tienen educaci�n?" It seems to me San Cristobal de las Casas is a lot cleaner but I believe this is because its economy is dependent on tourism. I'm wondering why the government doesn't do more to educate people about littering. I have noticed signs on the federal highways which seem a little cleaner. As I recall this littering is also one of the complaints the people in the US Border States have regarding Mexican immigrants.

Should I just accept the fact that I lived too long in Northern California or is Chiapas an exception?

[M@tt]

chiapas is not much of an exception, although certain states or cities are almost certainly cleaner. queretaro comes to mind. however, it seems clean only in comparison to other mexican cities. if you're comparing to somewhere like sausalito or palo alto, no wonder you're surprised! those places are clean even by US standards (where we do have our fair share of litter).

as far as i could tell while living in mexico, littering has no stigma attached to it. i even tried littering in front of friends to see their reaction but nobody cared. then i walked back and picked my litter up and they just thought i was weird.

now if you want them to think you're REALLY weird, try introducing the concept of picking up other people's litter just because it bothers you. i found the same reaction in france where a friend told me "it's the government's job."

[Guy Courchesne]

It seems to be a problem just about everywhere. DF employs armies of poorly paid street sweepers for public areas, but it's like they just can't keep up. In my own neighborhood, people seem pretty aware of it and are out cleaning all the time, so there's no city sweeper coming through.

In the central and east part of the city, the problem is more acutely felt, especially during rainy season when street trash blocks up storm drains nd produces additional flooding. I've seen the city blame the street vendors for leaving much of the trash, but blame should probably be spread around equally.

I think the problem is one of both infrastructure and education. The DF Zocalo area received a major amount of funding for an upgrade that completely changed its character...one of the simplest parts of the upgrade were to install trash bins and to mechanize the street sweeper brigade....now it stays relatively clean since people have a place to deposit trash, and businesses have clear sidewalks (street vendors removed) and an interest in maintaining them.

I don't know about Chiapas, but I'd be willing to bet that a public education campaign would be near fruitless if it wasn't backed up with simple infrastructure changes. Tell people to pick up trash all you want, but in the end, where does it go?

[jillford64]

Morelia is relatively clean for Mexico, at least downtown here where I live. My students have told me that Morelia is a lot cleaner than it used to be. The government installed trashcans all over the place to make it easier for people. The trashtruck comes down my street once per day, but the trashcans on the corners get emptied several times a day. My student say the trashcans are making a difference and that attitudes (at least with the young people) are starting to change.

[ls650]

I find this thread somewhat amusing. Over in the Lonely Planet's Thorntree forum, right now there's a thread going on about how much cleaner Chiapas is than other Mexican states!

http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/messagepost.cfm?postaction=reply&catid=17&threadid=1307094&messid=11414385&STARTPAGE=1&parentid=0&from=1

[MamaOaxaca]

I would say, yup, most of Mexico is like that. Aparently the US was full of litter until the 70's when Woodsy the Owl taught all us kids to give a hoot, don't pollute. Mexico is definately in need of a campaign like that to get the kids to put pressure on the grown ups. Especially considering they've got us grown ups so out numbered!

I was marvelling recently at the local debate about the "garbage problem" in my town. They are trying to figure out where to put all the garbage this growing town is generating. A prominent radio comentator said, "It's not like we can stop generating garbage." I don't have a phone at home, so either fortunately or unfortunately, I wasn't able to call the station and blast that idea right out of her. Everyday, we all make all sorts of little desicions about how much garbage we are producing. When you walk into a corner store and open the frigde, do you reach for a soda in a plastic bottle? a can? or a refillable glass bottle? Or do you just make yourself agua de jamaica at home?
I know a couple in Tlaxcala that only throw out their garbage once a year. They do this so that they can keep careful track of how much garbage they are producing and try to reduce that amount each year. They are extreme examples (yes, they are both Mexican!) but we can all be examples and models of the life we want to live.
I've taken to stoping people I see littering, I pick up what they've dropped and say, "you dropped this" while handing it back to them. I can see how teachers who are just in Mexico for a year wouldn't want to do this, but I'm part of the Mexican community, and I want Mexico to be the best it can be. It's not going to change if we all sit by complecently, if you want change, change.

Sorry, I don't know who left this soap box in my office, I'll take it to the dumpster now.

[thelmadatter]

It does vary from place to place. Toluca is horrible, esp in comparison to Cuernavaca and Queretaro. Like Mama Oaxaca said, the attitude is very comparible to what it was in the US in the 60's and early 70's when I was growing up. I remember my family throwing trash in the street as well, esp. while driving. We didnt throw dirty diapers but then at that time we didnt have disposables.

I do find that in areas where the govt does provide public trash cans, the litter problem is much less. Most people I guess wont carry their soda bottles for hours until they find a can. But if it is convenient to do so, they will put their trash in a bin.

I guess it just depends on if/when folks decide that litter is a problem for them.

[ls650]

This raises a good question. People complain about roadside trash in Mexico, but are western countries any better? The US, UK, Canada, etc. produce FAR more garbage per capita, but are a lot better at hiding it out of sight.

[corporatehuman]

Where are you in Chiapas exactly? Also the canon should be better now...not sure when you lasted visited it, but they did send in a team of people to clean it up. Overall the canyon is not too bad, there�s just this part full of plastic bottles...it is depressing.

There is some river that runs straight through Tuxtla, I saw it one morning and it was a sort of shiny, green, blue, with some Egrets playing in it. It smelled like a bathroom, and looked toxic. There�s another river that runs alongside my town (I think Rio Grande...should find out) and the problem all the towns, and villages up the river use it, literally, as a trashcan, and a toilet. However people here still swim in the river, and fish in the river.

But I do think overall Mexico doesn�t see litter as a problem, almost as if the streets were paved and built not for cars, but for easy disposal of trash. Comitan however is very clean (I have no idea why) and parts of San Cristobal.

Chris

[Guy Courchesne]

[cangringo]

We have a ton of litter here as well. People just chucking stuff everywhere. Of course everyone says they don't but someone is.

We do have a recycling program though. That was nice to see, it starts at the garbage truck, they pick out the cans and cardboard and such and sort it into other bags (we've seen them do this). The rest we've only read and heard about but apparently there are people living near the dumps whose job it is to sort the recyclables and take them to the recycling place...like I said we haven't seen the last bit but I assume if the garbage men take enough time to start sorting it must be for a reason. Of course I have seen a lot of job creation here...the guy at the airport that sweeps the puddles to keep the sidewalk dry for example.

[MamaOaxaca]

There is a reason, cangringo, the garbage men are selling those things they are separating from your garbage.
There are recycling options in Mexico, but as far as I know there aren't really any "recycling programs" as we would know them North of the Rio Bravo/Grande. There are places that buy used plasitic, aluminiun, steal, glass and paper to make new products. In a lot of areas of Mexico the Garbage men make some nice extra money pulling these materials out while they collect the garbage. When I lived in Morelia the garbage truck that came by my house was actually not in anyway connected with the city, but a independant junk collector, you paid him to take away your trash and he in turn sorted out "the good stuff" and sold that, and took the rest to the dump.
In other parts of Mexico marganilized poor are so desparate for work that they scour the dumps in order to exchange a kilo of cans for ten pesos. I wouldn't call it a job, it's more like a social problem.

[ls650]

[MamaOaxaca]

[cangringo]

Yes we have the independents as well, they come by with a horse and buggy. What we read of the recycling was that it was a job to separate the recycling for people living near the dump but that they do this after the garbage men have started the separation process. But it may be as you said and they write it up in a way that looks good to visitors?? Agreed it's not a program in the way we would think of it. At least someone is recycling and good for them if they make extra money.

We had the dumpster divers in Vancouver, for most of them it was a job. The social problem there had more to do with drugs and drinking though.

We noticed that most of the States we drove through on our way here didn't have recycling bins anywhere. In Vancouver, if there's a garbage can, nearby there will be a recycling bin but the places we drove through had nothing. It was especially apalling that the campsites had nowhere to recycle...maybe they seperate the garbage but I doubt it. The only think they seemed to recycle was beer cans but there weren't any bins for this.