Job Discussion Forums

[Quibby84]

the futon deal: you take the free futon that they give you and live with backaches for month (or fold your comforter in half and lay on that, and also freeze to death) and then when you get your first check buy a new futon and sleep on that. They gave us two futons, two big comforters, and two small fuzzy blankets. That was ok for a while but because it was cold we were really cold because we (my husband and I) practically slept alone because we were on separate beds. But last month we bought a full size futon. We put our old futons on the bottom, then the comforters, and then the new futon, you talk about HEAVEN! At first I was worried about the sleeping arrangements but I actually find that I sleep better here, but I do sometimes wake up with backaches. Oh well, it is the least of your worries.
And for the things that you want to do in Japan, it will be very easy for you not to spend to much money. You lose your money on the big cities and nice restaurants, but if you dont do those things, then you are set! We live in a semi-large city with tons of shrines and beautiful things (like every city in japan) and we could stay here and roam all day and never run out of things to do BUT my husband has this thing for Tokyo so we have gone there a few times (the train ticket alone is sometimes very expensive). But we also do look at things around home, you will be blown away at how beautiful Japan is...
So I think you will be fine, our job told us only to bring $500 each, but we brought more and spent $1800 for the first month. But we didnt save, at all. Come on! Now is the best time, you could probably be here by April if you get on it.

[Scruffy]

I'm down with all that. I hope to be there by April at the latest. I don't want to miss those beautiful cherry blossoms! I'll definitely double up on futons and do what I can to prevent backaches. Great suggestions! Ahhhh ... very much looking forward to Japan.

[Linp45]

Hey man, the good thing about having worked in Korea is that I will never have a worse job - ever! I thought that when I left there and it's been getting better since. Sure getting 2 masters degrees has helped (a lot!) but still the benchmark for the worst job imaginable for me is that in Korea.

Do be prepared to take your chances in Japan and be prepared for some strange and difficult events. Even a cursory search of this forum throws up question marks over many employers - The Big Apple in Tokyo, various despatch companies are often tricky to work with, The New Village in Kobe certainly seems to be a problem school and ZIAC (various cities) has similarly been slammed...and many more.

Do be prepared to hit and run if the job isn't right for you, because renegotiating an existing contract in ESL-land places your wedding tackle right on the chop-chop block.

[red dog]

I tend to disagree with what others are saying. Korea isn't perfect, but overall I had a pretty good experience there. I first went over as an ordinary person without any stellar qualifications, and I was treated pretty well most of the time ... and I think that's because I did my best and didn't make waves most of the time. I also did fairly well financially, and that definitely affected my quality of life. In Japan, I've spent a lot more than I've brought in and my finances are a lot less secure than they were a year ago. I admit I don't live like a miser, but I didn't always have to in Korea. ALTs really are lower than dirt within the Japanese public education system, and it's a very boring and unrewarding job. People try to be nice and helpful, but you may find that you're an extra body in the classroom with no real role to play. Of course there were other difficulties in Korea, but at least I felt I was performing a service that was somewhat helpful.

First, I just want to be clear that I don't dislike Japan at all. There are some great people here, and when I travelled in Japan (while living in Korea) it did seem preferable in several ways. It seemed a lot cleaner and prettier, and there was less pushing and shoving in the stores and on the streets. Some Western foods and toiletries that I liked were more available here too.

But after living here for a while I feel that the supposed advantages of Japan vs. Korea are way overstated. There are nice people in both countries; there are prettier and less-pretty areas in both countries; there are similar language and cultural barriers in both countries; and there are plenty of interesting things to see and do in both countries (if you can afford them). Some Western products are easier to find in Korea, and others are easier to find in Japan (but they really kill the budget in Japan). There's also less English in Japan, from what I can tell.

It seems much harder to get a good job in Japan because the market for English-speaking foreigners is basically saturated. There are plenty of competitors here with more experience, more education, and advanced Japanese skills -- with limited qualifications and start-up funds, the OP may have to take whatever job he can get. And that may be a very low-paying, low-status position out in the middle of nowhere.

OP, I'm not trying to discourage you ... I just think you should consider what Glenski said about finances and realize that Japan is an incredibly expensive place to live. If you do decide to come over, you should try to find something in a major city ... the Kansai area is a very cool place and there's plenty to do there. But Korea is a good place too, and some people do have positive experiences there even if you didn't.

Best of luck.

[Scruffy]

"But Korea is a good place too, and some people do have positive experiences there even if you didn't."

Agreed, as addressed in some of my earlier posts.

I won't work as an ALT ... it seems lots of people have had decent experiences (with the expected bout of frustration) as an ALT, but I'm not interested in losing my voice as a teacher. If you've had experience running your own classroom - and then switch gears and accept work as an assistant - well, that right there could set you up for a miserable experience.

I do appreciate hearing all sides of things and continue to feel encouraged rather than discouraged. Yes, it's true that you'll have a better experience in Korea if you learn to go with the flow and don't question things. But I was working in what to me were truly abysmal conditions, and I absolutely refused to continue to be a part of it.

Japan ... I'm sold. But I'm not romanticizing life there. About money, at this point if I can save just a meager amount every month I'll be okay. I'm not looking to get rich. Also, I'll have a secondary income source from some U.S.-based freelance writing work that won't conflict with my contract.

Anyway, I guess my point is that Korea is what it is. And I am what I am. And the two don't mesh. At all. But I guess on a good note ... Korea wasn't any worse than how it's described on the Korea board. That's not saying much, but at least it's something.

[Linp45]

Without getting too deep, I think that ethnocentric cultures like Korea and Japan react differently to foreigners. When an ethnocentric culture opens its doors the people understand other cultures but also dislike other cultures as they see their own cultural walls weakening and crumbling.

You might think this is an argument against Japan, but not so. Korea has experienced massive Western interventions without choice on the grounds of secuirty hence the existence of an abstract caste system there (Korean no1 American no2...so on), and so they exhibit a fairly obvious misguided arrogance in their attitudes to their foreign guests. Its a kind of indirect yet 'in your face' cultural arrogance.

The Western influence in Japan is much more superficial and less of a shock to the social system (at the moment!) - so while many older people don't like the 'western way of thinking' whatver that means, I just haven't found the same number of people wasting my time with their rudeness. I also took one of the biggest body-checks I've ever taken off the rugby field while walking in the horribly crowded and disorderly Korean city centers.
There are very obvious differences between Korea and Japan, in general Japanese people being of higher a social order than the relatively tactless Koreans.

[Scruffy]

This discussion is beginning to sound like a rough sketch of a graduate thesis. There's so much to explore!

Anyway, what I'm trying to be careful of is locking Korea into a tight fist and making claims that the entire culture is as I experienced it to be during my mere months there. But what you said about tactless and rude? That's pretty much what I experienced, but that's not what caused me to leave. It was specifically the school situation.

As an American, there's a certain amount of built-in judgment toward me where ever I go in the world, but in Korea? Disturbing in how it manifested itself. It's not the rudeness or judgment that bothered me (I wasn't born yesterday) so much as it was the manner in which I experienced it.

Am I waxing philosophical or waning philosophical.

Cheers.

[red dog]

Well, I didn't find the majority of Korean adults to be any more rude than adults back home. If anything, it was the opposite. Kids were a different story, though ... they're definitely a lot friendlier and more polite in Japan. (But that may have something to do with the lower level of English and the fact that I work in public schools.)

Of course I realize there are many cultural differences between Korea and Japan, but I'm not sure how they translate to Korea being a worse place for foreigners, in the minds of some here. Maybe the people I associated with in Korea were just nicer or more intelligent than the ones you all seem to have encountered. I didn't speak much Korean, so most of the people who talked to me were bilingual, well-educated, and had lived in other countries before. Maybe that made a difference.

But even though I had good luck before, I'm not counting on being just as lucky next time around. I know there's a lot to be wary of in Korea, and the recent job ads I've seen are really depressing. Money is definitely a factor in my decision, but I definitely don't want to be locked into a nightmare contract either. Ugh. I guess we'd both better hope for the best ...

[Scruffy]

I hear you, dog. It's a bit of a gamble no matter our research and question-asking. After Korea I'm feeling apprehensive, but I want to teach and look forward to a year in Japan. So whatever that entails I'm game. But double ugh! What if ...

[Gypsy Rose Kim]

I worked in Japan before coming to Korea. There are many reasons why I left Japan, most of which have to do with restlessness, but one of which may be relevant because it's not often discussed when this topic comes up.

Japan, and especially Tokyo, can be an extremely lonely place. I'm a pretty solitary person, and ironically the best friends I have ever had were (and still are) in Tokyo. Still, though, it is lonely.

Scruffy, you need to be prepared for that.

I remember one of my coworkers in Ginza went to see Lost in Translation and everyone asked her if it was any good. She told me there was a scene where SJ was sitting in a hotel room, looking out over Tokyo, and just crying the way every foreign woman (I can't speak for the men) will at sometime or another. Months later, when I got around to seeing the movie, I could totally relate as well. It captured that loneliness very well.

So, anyway, that's part of why I left Japan.

I'm posting this because I think Korea gets a bum rap. I, too, had a shitty first employer, bought my way out of my first contract to the tune of 2 million won, and wound up here in Seoul in the best job of my life.

Another thing that doesn't get mentioned enough is how much fun Korean students are to teach. I've taught adults and children, though mostly university students, in both countries. You do have to tiptoe around some issues with Japanese students, and they are naturally less inclined to talk with their classmates. Koreans may be "rude" as someone said, but they let you say whatever the hell you want. And they are very sociable.

Sure, the money here is great, but I made more in Japan after I'd been there a few years.

I'm heading back to Tokyo for personal reasons, most notably that other than New York, I find every city in the world boring after living in Tokyo. However, I didn't want anyone who was considering making the move to Korea to rule it out based on the bad experiences of some.

[AndyH]

Good point, Kim. Although my "Korea experience" was quite negative, I knew a few people who had really positive experiences there. Most of them were fortunate to have not been employed by hagwans.
I moved to the Tokyo area from a small city in Hokkaido, and know what you mean. I was very homesick for Hokkaido for my first six months. I found it hard to make friends in Kanto, initially. But, after some time and patience, it worked out.
I'm glad you made your post, as even though my experience seems the norm for Korea, yours is just as valid, and deserves mention.

[Khyron]

I'll sign up as yet another former Korean hagwon allumni.

I did my year, and actually I liked it overall(my first hagwon was one of those horror stories that you read about, and my second was great. I left it because I thought I had a great deal in Japan, which wasn't really such a great deal. Oh well, I'm enjoying my current job!). It was easier to save money there, than in Japan. Nearly everything was cheaper, and I found it quite easy to live there.

Yet, I also say that Japan is better. I think the visa situation in Korea is the main thing that really lowers Koreas ranking for me. Since your wonjongnim basically owns you, he's free to blackmail you as much as he wants. There's not a lot you can do about it, so you just have to pray for a decent boss! Add to that a fear of paying heavy fines, spending time in jail(!) and being exported... just for teaching privates, and it just kills any desire I have to return to Korea (and I honestly do miss it). It's unfortunate that the Korean government can't get its act together and make the conditions for foreign workers somewhat fair.

I also agree with what a few others here have said; you should've stuck it out at least a few more months and saved some money. It's not like it's hard to save in Korea. You really could've used it before coming to Japan. In all honesty, $1000 might not even be enough to make it for one month here (it's definitely not as cheap as Korea!). Beer is cheap enough in Korea that you could've just drowned yourself in a few bottles of Hite/Cass/OB everyday until you had a few more paychecks in the bank...

[Khyron]

[Gypsy Rose Kim]

Yep. The visas are a big thing. As I said, I had to buy my way out of my first contract in Korea. It cost me 2 million won to get a release letter, but it was money well spent. Still, in Japan that wouldn't have been an issue.

I also think $1000 is a bit low, unless you're bringing a credit card and plan on charging the big things. I remember that my subway pass just to and from work was over 12,000 yen a month. Remember, that's not counting any travel except to and from my job, and anywhere I wanted to go that fell between those two points on the same train lines.

Bring your credit card, you'll make that money back and be able to pay it off within the first six months.

[Jwater800]