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StayingPower
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 252
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 Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: Need Info About Getting a Visitor's Visa |
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I'm tired of a 30 day landing visa and am scheduled to go to Macau this week. I've been told you can get a visitors visa there, and cheap, so I've taken this route.
But I'm wondering how much it costs and how to get a visitor's visa in Macau. Need some info if anyone's got it. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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If you are going to be working in Taiwan then you should probably be getting yourself a resident visa. Schools such as Hess can arrange all of this for you so that you don't need to be making visa runs all the time  |
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StayingPower
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:47 am Post subject: |
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"Schools like HESS?" Sounds like a good choice. But oh, I think they only hire overseas no? And isn't that because they can't-from what I've heard-find anyone to work for them here and therefore use a sense of 'pettifogging' in order to recruit their employees?
No, I'm off to a 60 day visitor's visa which is pretty much easily converted into an ARC. But I would appreciate it if anyone other than Clark "SuperHESS" Kent has any info.
Besides, you have to kiss a lot of butt at HESS Clark, which I'm sure is something you're used to, "successfully speaking." |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Now, now Stayingpower. I was merely pointing out something that you have no doubt now come to realize and that is that there are some definite benefits to working for well organized schools such as Hess. So despite all your complaints about them of recent weeks, you have now pretty clearly point to one of their benefits i.e. not having to worry about visas!
| StayingPower wrote: |
| But oh, I think they only hire overseas no? |
I don�t know that this is true but even if it is as you will be in Macau, which is overseas, so good news is you will qualify!
| StayingPower wrote: |
| No, I'm off to a 60 day visitor's visa which is pretty much easily converted into an ARC. |
Actually not. You cannot convert any type of visa into an ARC. What you can do is convert a visitors visa into a resident visa. The ARC merely accompanies the resident visa.
Be aware however that you can�t legally work on the tourist visa which effectively means that even if you find a job the first day back in the country that you can�t legally start work until the process is complete. The process generally takes around three to four weeks.
Anyway, just words of advice that you can choose to take or leave as you see fit. I would hate to see you come back here though complaining if you get caught and deported for working illegally! |
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StayingPower
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, I knew you were joking Clark, you joker you. I won't be starting work until April, that's why I'm looking for this info. Thanks though.
Honestly though, that's the way you'd think things would be, HESS holding to the contract and all, you legal at last, no worries. Yet it doesn't hold water, because as you can see by my diatribes, there's no guarantee this ARC will be honored. So if all of us did it this way Clark, I doubt half of the teachers in Taiwan would be here.
Many come, find a job, get the ARC later, fact of life in Taiwan.
Some go illegal, which I don't plan to do. But the gist of the matter is that very, very few schools are going to wait 5-6 weeks to get your resident visa and then start you.
Ask good old Aristotle. Even ask HESS. They also start you before you get your resident visa. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, I knew you were joking Clark, you joker you. I won't be starting work until April, that's why I'm looking for this info. Thanks though.
Honestly though, that's the way you'd think things would be, HESS holding to the contract and all, you legal at last, no worries. Yet it doesn't hold water, because as you can see by my diatribes, there's no guarantee this ARC will be honored. So if all of us did it this way Clark, I doubt half of the teachers in Taiwan would be here.
Many come, find a job, get the ARC later, fact of life in Taiwan.
Some go illegal, which I don't plan to do. But the gist of the matter is that very, very few schools are going to wait 5-6 weeks to get your resident visa and then start you.
Ask good old Aristotle. Even ask HESS. They also start you before you get your resident visa. |
Without commenting on the HESS situation: Your entire story is a good example of the clear benefits of having a job secured BEFORE coming to Taiwan. That's a great way to make sure that you don't have to do visa runs, or have the stress of not having a job for a months at a time.
There are benefits to both, but your story is definitely a cautionary tale of why using a Company like Reach To Teach or Dewey to confirm a job before coming to Taiwan can be beneficial if teachers do their research properly and let their wishes be known to these Companies. |
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Dr_Zoidberg
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Not posting on Forumosa.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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As far as Hess is concerned, they do hire within Taiwan. I applied to them at one point, and was offered a job. I cannot comment on what they are like as an employer as I opted to take a different job.
Here's some advice for your visa run: Smile. Be friendly, but even more importantly, be respectful. Defer to their authority, and make sure you say thank you.
Your future in Taiwan, or not, is in their hands. They may want to make a point of letting you know that. If so, make sure you are appropriately awed. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:36 am Post subject: |
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Here's some advice for your visa run: Smile. Be friendly, but even more importantly, be respectful. Defer to their authority, and make sure you say thank you.
Your future in Taiwan, or not, is in their hands. They may want to make a point of letting you know that. If so, make sure you are appropriately awed. |
Excellent advice.... If only all visitors, to all countries followed that! |
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StayingPower
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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The gist of the matter is not job etiquette. It's getting a visitor's visa in Macau. I think, however, that the etiquette you speak of is always dependent upon the work environment, unless you just want to be a pushover.
I mean come on, to "secure a job before you get here" is lame advice, since you really don't know the ins and outs of the company, have not met them face to face, and don't get an overall feeling for the work environment. It's like one of those old commercials on tv where the owner of a business says something like this: "We lost so and so today from doing business with us. . .before we used to do business with a handshake. . .he said he didn't know us anymore. . .I'm going to meet him personally. . .shake his hand."
In other words, business used to be more honest, personable. The big chains that hire from abroad, and non-chain schools alike, are apt to treat you more as a number, a commodity, a dollar figure and definitely 'impersonal.' Sure they say "We'll get you an apartment. . .take care of all your needs", right? But then there's what's 'not in the contract,' what many I'm sure have experienced at chain schools and those that hire from abroad alike. One such bad experience is the abuse of workers' rights. I've alluded to many others in my so-called "complaints." And this has been my experience. Why?
They're not going to hire someone in their own country because 1) there are less applicants due to competitoin, better options, job-awareness, and 2)Pettifogging(legal trickery,) is much easier to spring on a non-resident. You've got more to lose than they do, and they have an advantage over you from the start. Some expamples are probation periods, loans offered, evaluations, censoriousness in the work place and conformity to their cultural norms, some of which may be dishonest.
Smiling, deferring, submitting, speaking kindly, are all ways of making sure you're dehumanized and left vulnerable to their whims. One whim is that they can always "fire" you. The contract, then, doesn't have any validity. This is 'despite having good etiquette.' We all have our own personalities, so why should mine be based on their likes and dislikes, seeing I never met them? Do you think there aren't some things I don't like about Taiwanese culture and etiquette? Is there mutual understanding, cultural acceptance based on trust, something a contract is supposed to bridge? But you're 'actually basing a promising job career' on etiquette?' Will that hold water here in Taiwan, or in any foreign country? I don't think so.
Culture works both ways, and a foreign worker's culture has to be "understood" as well. When CT's and employers leer at me, make my job miserable, malign me behind my back, mis-use my rights by overwork etc., then we really don't have any reason to smile, and "etiquette" is effete. |
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BigWally
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 765
Location: Ottawa, CAN (prev. Kaohsiung "the Dirty South")
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| StayingPower wrote: |
I mean come on, to "secure a job before you get here" is lame advice, since you really don't know the ins and outs of the company, have not met them face to face, and don't get an overall feeling for the work environment. |
In no way is this lame advice. This is good advice for many people who feel that the best way to travel to the other side of the world, and find work is to go through a larger chain school that recruits from overseas. Sure, its not perfect, and it may not be the most ideal option for veteran world travelers like yourself, but for many people who may be coming straight out of university this is a totally viable, and helpful piece of advice.
Obviously, if you don't do some research about teaching ESL abroad, about the country you're going to, and about the companies you want to work for you're setting yourself up for failure, but I would say thats the case with any job in the world.
| StayingPower wrote: |
| They're not going to hire someone in their own country because 1) there are less applicants due to competitoin, better options, job-awareness, |
If there are always better options then many of these larger chain schools would no longer be operating...clearly they are finding many teachers who are willing to do the work that is asked of them, and accept the different style in which business is done here than back home (wherever that may be). I've also heard that many schools are hesitant to hire teachers that are already in country, and have been for a period of time, because it makes them wonder A) why the prospective employee doesn't have/no longer has employment B) how willing will this person will be to accepting the schools curriculum plan, however different it may be from their previous employer C) how difficult will it be to 'retrain' the person into teaching following the schools plan
| StayingPower wrote: |
| 2)Pettifogging(legal trickery,) is much easier to spring on a non-resident. You've got more to lose than they do, and they have an advantage over you from the start. Some expamples are probation periods, loans offered, evaluations, censoriousness in the work place and conformity to their cultural norms, some of which may be dishonest. |
PETTIFOGGING
Something petty or trivial.
In the later middle ages, there was a class of lawyers who earned their livings making a great deal of fuss over minor legal cases. About 1560 they came to be called pettifoggers. They often had limited concern for scruples or conscience and the term was deeply contemptuous.
The lawyers called pettifoggers spent their time arguing about matters of small importance. The term became popular, and spawned derivatives like pettifogging. These survived the original term, which is now considered archaic, but we retain in the latter word the idea of somebody who places too much emphasis on trifles or who quibbles about minor matters.
Anyways, as for your points "probation periods, loans offered, evaluations, censoriousness in the work place and conformity to their cultural norms, some of which may be dishonest"
Probation Period: Any job that I've ever had in Canada had a standard 60 day probation period where the employee can be terminated with little or no notice at the company's discretion.
Loans: Having a loan offered to many people who, as I stated before, may be coming straight out of university may be a great option, as many people underestimate the cost of relocating to a new country. Sure the company has you by the nuts until you pay the loan off, but typically they are interest free, and you can set up a payment schedule at your discretion...when was the last time the bank did that for you?
Evaluations: Again, in probably close to 75% of the jobs I've ever held, I've had to undergo evaluations of some form or another. Do you not think its fair for an employer to expect a certain level of quality, or a certain standard from their employees? I don't see how evaluations are unreasonable or unfair in the least. I cant imagine you would sign a contract not expecting to be evaluated?!?
Censoriousness & Conformity: I think this could be a valid point for many individuals who are not familiar with an Asian-style work ethic, versus say a North American one. Business is very competitive in Asia, and as such (as any of your students will attest) everyone is constantly striving for perfection and excellence. In order for things to be done "properly", they need to be done in the manner that your particular school wants them to be done. If you cant agree with this then maybe that particular school isnt right for you. As for the conformity to cultural norms, personally I find culture stimulating and an exciting difference from Western life. I expected things to be a lot different here, and its been everything I was hoping for and more.
I dont know what your specifically referring to as dishonest cultural norms, but maybe you could clarify this point?
| StayingPower wrote: |
| Smiling, deferring, submitting, speaking kindly, are all ways of making sure you're dehumanized and left vulnerable to their whims. |
This is actually rooted in Asian culture, these are not ways of trying to dehumanize you, they are simply the manner is which business is done. One does not bad mouth their company, their bosses, or their jobs, as a public display of emotion is considered a major faux pas.
| StayingPower wrote: |
| One whim is that they can always "fire" you. The contract, then, doesn't have any validity. |
As with any contract, there are means by which a contract can be legally broken. If one party in not fulfilling the requirements of the contract, naturally you can assume that the contract can be legally broken, the that party would be terminated.
| StayingPower wrote: |
| This is 'despite having good etiquette.' We all have our own personalities, so why should mine be based on their likes and dislikes, seeing I never met them? |
Etiquette has nothing to do with the requirements of the contract. If they are not fulfilled then one could expect their employment to be terminated.
| StayingPower wrote: |
| Do you think there aren't some things I don't like about Taiwanese culture and etiquette? |
Yes, I'm sure there are. As with everyone I'm sure there are things that grate on your nerves. The key is how you deal with it. Do you publicly display your anger, or do you accept it as a part of life in Taiwan that you simply cant control, or change, and just accept it and move on. Taiwan was here a long time before you were, why is it going to change for you?
| StayingPower wrote: |
| Culture works both ways, and a foreign worker's culture has to be "understood" as well. When CT's and employers leer at me, make my job miserable, malign me behind my back, mis-use my rights by overwork etc., then we really don't have any reason to smile, and "etiquette" is effete. |
This would be true in a perfect world, unfortunately many non-foreigner run schools have absoultely no understanding of foreign culture, nor do they want it. Generally speaking, they want a English speaking, attractive, white face to come in and entertain the students for 3-8 hours a day. Sure they leer at you, make you miserable, how would you feel if you were doing the same job as someone in your home country and being paid a fraction of what they are being paid, simply because they speak an additional language.
I can understand that many of the Chinese Staff at many schools would harbor some resentment toward the foreigner teachers, I've seen the workloads they have, and I've heard the income that they make. We are on easy street, and they know it, and as such, asking us to do some extra unpaid work, smile, and accept the cultural differences that we may or may not like isn't that much to ask.
This job ain't for everyone, and culturally, the ancient proverb said it best..."When in Rome, do as the Romans do." |
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BigWally
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 765
Location: Ottawa, CAN (prev. Kaohsiung "the Dirty South")
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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As for your information request about the Visitors Visa, its different amounts depending on what country you're coming from.
Its also true that many schools will start you working before actually getting your visitors visa converted into a resident visa, then getting your work permit, then ARC settled for you, but really this is a fairly insignificant amount of time, probably closer to 3-4 weeks, rather than the 5-6 you mentioned.
Also plan ahead as to why you require a 60 day Visitor Visa rather than just a 30 day one, as I'm sure this question will come up. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Wow, great post Wally. That definitely deserves a sticky, or something like it!
Every new teacher should read through that post... excellent, well balanced advice! |
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StayingPower
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Sorry Wally, I don't read such long posts. So therefore, I hope you got something out of it, feel a little better and let everyone know how much you know about Taiwan. |
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BigWally
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 765
Location: Ottawa, CAN (prev. Kaohsiung "the Dirty South")
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| StayingPower wrote: |
| Sorry Wally, I don't read such long posts. So therefore, I hope you got something out of it, feel a little better and let everyone know how much you know about Taiwan. |
I'm not sure why your reply would be so cynical, there wasn't anything negative directed toward you in that post. Had you taken the time to read it you would have seen that.
As for your reply, emphatically "yes!!"...I will feel great if I can help prospective teachers have a more informed, less-biased opinion about teaching in Taiwan. I don't claim to be a wealth of information, nor act as if I do...rather I try to post un-biased information.
I'm not here to get anything out of it, anything but, I'm here to help people who are in the same position that I once was.
Ganbei!  |
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BigWally
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 765
Location: Ottawa, CAN (prev. Kaohsiung "the Dirty South")
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| SanChong wrote: |
Wow, great post Wally. That definitely deserves a sticky, or something like it!
Every new teacher should read through that post... excellent, well balanced advice! |
Thanks SC....just trying to pull my weight around here.  |
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