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ldeeep
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 20
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Grasshopper wrote: |
You asked for information. People are trying to help you.
If you want to come to Japan on vacation, enjoy. If you want to come to Japan to work, get an education first.
Personally, we don`t care if you come or not. People on this forum are generally here to help you out, answer your questions and exchange ideas.
Good Luck. |
i know this, and most people are very helpful. yet there are always a few people on every board that unnecessarily condescend for whatever personal reasons, and i find it petty and annoying. my post addressed one person. |
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ldeeep
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 20
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Scruffy wrote: |
ldeep ... I'm 36 and finished my degree a few years ago. I didn't want to go the federal loans route, but I was left with little choice. So now I have loans to repay ... but I refuse to view them as debts. That was an investment in my future that I'll always have. About your credit score, I think you might be torn between two worlds: one where you are a free spirit and working in foreign lands and learning new languages, and one where you are anchored to the stuff the suits cram into our brains and try to convince us really matters.
Credit matters, yes, but it's never listed on your transcripts, your diploma, your CV, your marriage/birth/death certificates, or your forehead. And should you find yourself in a situation (say, work) that requires a full background, including your credit score, everyone can relate to this: "If you don't take into consideration my student loans, I have excellent credit!"
You have an interesting array of experiences. With some finesse you can make yourself look presentable on paper, regardless of your credit score. But get that degree. You only have two or so years left. Get federal financial aid for those remaining two years. Don't be overwhelmed by the process. You'll get enough to pay for all of your classes AND a couple thousand that will be auto-deposited into your checking account for books, living expenses, etc.
But if you're set on an experience abroad - and I totally respect this - then I would encourage you to let go of Japan and instead focus on Vietnam, Cambodia and elsewhere. What you are wanting to do is not impossible.
BTW, had I really understood what federal aid was about, I would have finished my degree when I was your age. But I didn't and now regret it. There's a watered-down effect when you wait too long and have a mess of other experiences accumulated along the way. This can make you interesting and give you some great stories to tell, but ... well, that's just my twenty cents, earned the hard way.
Cheers! |
wow.....36.....and i thought i was way behind the game =) i felt like "the old guy" when i was the 24 year old sitting in 1st semester japanese class with a bunch of immature kids fresh out of high school. the dermination to finish your degree in your 30s speaks for itself.
i think sometimes it can be good to spend the formulative years just after high school not in an institution like college or the military....i think it can foster more independent thinking.
i know all about federal aid....i have plenty of federal loans to be paid....but my federal aid fell through this semester because i retook a class that i dropped in the fall due to an idiot professor....they won't pay for the class twice, and that dropped my number of credits below the financial aid limit. so basically i'm a semester of tuition behind which really puts me in a bind now that i'm graduating this may, and i need to pay up before i can get transcripts so i can transfer.
i also don't think they would pay for studying abroad....that's where the personal loans would be nice, and that's also where my poor credit score negates that possibility. =/
yeah, i just looked at vietnam today.....there's a definite possibility there. it would be kind of a trip to be in the same places where my dad was when he was there for 9 months in 69 under different circumstances. cambodia....just gives me bad vibes for some reason.
in a different thread, someone mentioned that there are are government funded programs for learning chinese in china. that would be an adventure...i'm giving that serious consideration. already knowing many kanji would make that a little easier...
anyway, thanks for the advice!  |
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Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:47 am Post subject: |
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i think you are doing your best to misconstrue my comments to make me sound naive for your own personal reasons. really, take a look at your posts in this thread and tell me you don't see a negative, miserable, generally *beep* poster. i'm not some japan nerd who has been looking into this for a long time. i'm still open to many possibilities. i'm at least 6 months from making any concrete decisions, so i'm not "naive" for not knowing the intricacies of the japanese TEFL and the japanese visa program at this point in time. TEFL knowledge has no direct correlation to *beep* size, okay?
so if you want to post helpful information in a friendly way, please do so. otherwise, take your attitude elsewhere. |
I've been called negative before. Sticks and stones. The simple fact is, I've been teaching in Japan for the past 8+ years, in eikaiwa, high school, private lessons, and university, so you might want to rein in your comments and listen a little. You wrote that you have a "thick skin", but this is one of the most civil discussion forums around, and you have taken offense at some simple factual statements, not intended to flame you or to twist your words. I think you have simply read into them far more than they were intended.
You have only an associate's degree, and you are an American.
That means you can't get a job here unless you have a student visa or cultural visa and special permission. You wrote that you think your "image" (Irish-looking?) makes you attractive as teacher potential. Personally, that has little to do with it. What makes the majority of newcomers good material as teachers includes:
1) Having the qualifications for the right visa.
2) Being a native English speaker.
3) Being Caucasian.
You said that you can be "charming", as if this would resolve any immigration issues at a high school that might want to hire you. C'mon, now. Tell me that's not naive.
You wrote:
| Quote: |
| i probably have enough education and experience to get a tech job in japan. if i can work on the tech helpdesk at the NHQ of a huge insurance company in the US, i can probably land something in japan. |
Without a proper education, you don't qualify for a work visa, and the MOFA regulations state that for an intra-company transfer visa: "The applicant must have been employed at the main office, or branch office or other office abroad for at least 1 year immediately prior to the transfer to Japan while engaging in a job which falls under the "Engineer" or "Specialists in Humanities/International Services" categories. " http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/appendix1.html#7
So, again, to assume that you can just walk into a new job in the US and get transferred here to work is also naive.
You then wrote:
| Quote: |
| i made it clear that due to new information, i was going to treat my visit like a vacation, and not expect much, if anything. i don't understand what the problem is with that. in fact, if i can visit for a month or two and not be in the red too much, i'd actually much prefer that to getting any kind of job and staying for longer. |
It is very naive to think that after the information I gave you on immigration policies, that you could just come here for a few months and work (doing what is not clear, DJ work? engineering/IT work?).
You ask for serious information, yet you scoff at the penalties for working illegally (as a DJ), and even believe that you can live off getting paid in drinks, not money. If any foreigner walked into your city and said the same thing to you about working there, what would you call that attitude? Naive!
It seems that you took offense right after my last post. Perhaps the preceding information was not that offensive. So, let's look at the post, and I have reviewed it to show what I think might have given you some cause to feel offended. You wrote:
| Quote: |
| one thing i don't understand is that it seems like from what everyone is saying, private schools in japan are just as subject to government regulation re: teacher screening as public schools are. i know they both go through the same visa process, but it just strikes me as odd that private schools would still be regulated like that. i suppose if one were to quit the job at the private school, that person could still use the valid work visa and get a simliar job at a public school.....and they wouldn't want uneducated, barbarian gaijins influencing their children in the public sector, probably |
I asked you to define "teacher screening" and "government screening" (should have read "regulation", but that's a typo you could have easily understood). Let me ask again, because I'm the one who is confused now. What do you mean by those terms? I asked because practically everyone who applies for a job here has to get interviewed and follow government regulations on visas. If you don't realize that, then you are again naive. No offense, really. Just a statement of fact, but the number of naive statements you have piled up in this thread is astonishing.
As for the second part of that quote, I thought it was clear that when you wrote at a public school.....and they wouldn't want uneducated, barbarian gaijins influencing their children in the public sector, probably , you were also misinformed or naive about the situation. My response was entirely factual, but I suspect you just didn't like being called naive. I could have said far worse, but I've learned to be professional on these forums after posting for 10 years.
Look, I've been in the position of looking for a teaching job from the USA, too. However, I was far older than you and had a bachelor's and master's degree to help me get past immigration. At that time the Internet had few sites like this one (in fact, this one had an entirely different format, which is why my avatar mistakenly says I joined only 4 years ago, when it was far longer ago). There was practically nobody out there dispensing information. I sifted through employer web sites (the few that existed), lurked on half a dozen forums, collected and collated data into a 2-megabyte package to examine, and put my resume into the pile. I got a good starting job, as a result, but I had the necessary qualifications! You don't, except to work PT on a student or cultural visa. If you want anything more than that, you will have to get the qualifications. Japan will still be here when you do.
Have you even been in Japan? I highly recommend that you come to visit, but don't use that solely as a measure for what you will experience in the working world. That would be...uh... naive, too. But you have to use SOMEthing to go on. Scour the boards like I did (and like many do), and listen to people's experiences to gain an understanding of what it is like to teach, especially at entry level work. Knowing what it takes to land the job is one thing, but knowing what you face on the job is another and equally important, because so many people come here and end up disappointed just because they had false hopes or illusions of what it was going to be like. Dispensing information like I (and the many other here) do is meant to educate you so you avoid that problem.
That is my "attitude". |
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Scruffy
Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 45
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:13 am Post subject: |
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You'll need transcripts for most work visas that require a degree. Something to consider. I had a similar situation and had to go over their heads to get mine released so I could get a job. Vietnam ... that'd definitely be interesting with your father's history. Financial aid for studying abroad ... yes! If it's a university-recognized program, your aid applies.
Charm does work miracles. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
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ldeeep
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 20
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
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i think you are doing your best to misconstrue my comments to make me sound naive for your own personal reasons. really, take a look at your posts in this thread and tell me you don't see a negative, miserable, generally *beep* poster. i'm not some japan nerd who has been looking into this for a long time. i'm still open to many possibilities. i'm at least 6 months from making any concrete decisions, so i'm not "naive" for not knowing the intricacies of the japanese TEFL and the japanese visa program at this point in time. TEFL knowledge has no direct correlation to *beep* size, okay?
so if you want to post helpful information in a friendly way, please do so. otherwise, take your attitude elsewhere. |
I've been called negative before. Sticks and stones. The simple fact is, I've been teaching in Japan for the past 8+ years, in eikaiwa, high school, private lessons, and university, so you might want to rein in your comments and listen a little. You wrote that you have a "thick skin", but this is one of the most civil discussion forums around, and you have taken offense at some simple factual statements, not intended to flame you or to twist your words. I think you have simply read into them far more than they were intended.
You have only an associate's degree, and you are an American.
That means you can't get a job here unless you have a student visa or cultural visa and special permission. You wrote that you think your "image" (Irish-looking?) makes you attractive as teacher potential. Personally, that has little to do with it. What makes the majority of newcomers good material as teachers includes:
1) Having the qualifications for the right visa.
2) Being a native English speaker.
3) Being Caucasian.
You said that you can be "charming", as if this would resolve any immigration issues at a high school that might want to hire you. C'mon, now. Tell me that's not naive.
You wrote:
| Quote: |
| i probably have enough education and experience to get a tech job in japan. if i can work on the tech helpdesk at the NHQ of a huge insurance company in the US, i can probably land something in japan. |
Without a proper education, you don't qualify for a work visa, and the MOFA regulations state that for an intra-company transfer visa: "The applicant must have been employed at the main office, or branch office or other office abroad for at least 1 year immediately prior to the transfer to Japan while engaging in a job which falls under the "Engineer" or "Specialists in Humanities/International Services" categories. " http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/appendix1.html#7
So, again, to assume that you can just walk into a new job in the US and get transferred here to work is also naive.
You then wrote:
| Quote: |
| i made it clear that due to new information, i was going to treat my visit like a vacation, and not expect much, if anything. i don't understand what the problem is with that. in fact, if i can visit for a month or two and not be in the red too much, i'd actually much prefer that to getting any kind of job and staying for longer. |
It is very naive to think that after the information I gave you on immigration policies, that you could just come here for a few months and work (doing what is not clear, DJ work? engineering/IT work?).
You ask for serious information, yet you scoff at the penalties for working illegally (as a DJ), and even believe that you can live off getting paid in drinks, not money. If any foreigner walked into your city and said the same thing to you about working there, what would you call that attitude? Naive!
It seems that you took offense right after my last post. Perhaps the preceding information was not that offensive. So, let's look at the post, and I have reviewed it to show what I think might have given you some cause to feel offended. You wrote:
| Quote: |
| one thing i don't understand is that it seems like from what everyone is saying, private schools in japan are just as subject to government regulation re: teacher screening as public schools are. i know they both go through the same visa process, but it just strikes me as odd that private schools would still be regulated like that. i suppose if one were to quit the job at the private school, that person could still use the valid work visa and get a simliar job at a public school.....and they wouldn't want uneducated, barbarian gaijins influencing their children in the public sector, probably |
I asked you to define "teacher screening" and "government screening" (should have read "regulation", but that's a typo you could have easily understood). Let me ask again, because I'm the one who is confused now. What do you mean by those terms? I asked because practically everyone who applies for a job here has to get interviewed and follow government regulations on visas. If you don't realize that, then you are again naive. No offense, really. Just a statement of fact, but the number of naive statements you have piled up in this thread is astonishing.
As for the second part of that quote, I thought it was clear that when you wrote at a public school.....and they wouldn't want uneducated, barbarian gaijins influencing their children in the public sector, probably , you were also misinformed or naive about the situation. My response was entirely factual, but I suspect you just didn't like being called naive. I could have said far worse, but I've learned to be professional on these forums after posting for 10 years.
Look, I've been in the position of looking for a teaching job from the USA, too. However, I was far older than you and had a bachelor's and master's degree to help me get past immigration. At that time the Internet had few sites like this one (in fact, this one had an entirely different format, which is why my avatar mistakenly says I joined only 4 years ago, when it was far longer ago). There was practically nobody out there dispensing information. I sifted through employer web sites (the few that existed), lurked on half a dozen forums, collected and collated data into a 2-megabyte package to examine, and put my resume into the pile. I got a good starting job, as a result, but I had the necessary qualifications! You don't, except to work PT on a student or cultural visa. If you want anything more than that, you will have to get the qualifications. Japan will still be here when you do.
Have you even been in Japan? I highly recommend that you come to visit, but don't use that solely as a measure for what you will experience in the working world. That would be...uh... naive, too. But you have to use SOMEthing to go on. Scour the boards like I did (and like many do), and listen to people's experiences to gain an understanding of what it is like to teach, especially at entry level work. Knowing what it takes to land the job is one thing, but knowing what you face on the job is another and equally important, because so many people come here and end up disappointed just because they had false hopes or illusions of what it was going to be like. Dispensing information like I (and the many other here) do is meant to educate you so you avoid that problem.
That is my "attitude". |
it's fantastic that you are the encyclopedia of TEFL in japan, and i'm sure it makes you feel very important, but you have to realize that much of what i post is light-hearted and tongue-in-cheek. hence, the use of smiles and winks and whatnot. i understand that if i was somebody else reading my comments, and for some reason i thought i was dead serious, i would probably have issues with myself as well.
i guess the use of slightly subtle humor goes waaay over the head of some people.
look at this thread...i was originally told by a friend that a 2 year degree is the minimum for working in japan. a long time ago, i pretty much abandoned the possibility of working, and started to plan for a visit or possibly studying abroad. yet, you continue to lecture me that DJing on a visit in japan is a very dangerous idea, i'm naive because i don't know information that i've never bothered to research yet, and you pick apart my not-serious comments like "at a public school.....and they wouldn't want uneducated, barbarian gaijins influencing their children in the public sector, probably"....it was a joke! ha. ha.
i always call out people who condescend on forums. you should really look into the context of what people are saying. |
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Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Simple response: write more carefully. People cannot always read your mind, even with smileys.
Case in point that did not appear to be a joke:
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| yet there are always a few people on every board that unnecessarily condescend for whatever personal reasons, and i find it petty and annoying. my post addressed one person. |
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BigPoppa
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 28
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| i always call out people who condescend on forums. you should really look into the context of what people are saying. |
I saw very little condescension and a lot of you acting like a jerk.
You asked some questions and got serous, well thought out replies.
You made several seemingly serious attempts to show how the rules did not apply to you (even though they obviously did).
You were told that the rules did, indeed apply to you and that any thoughts otherwise were naive.
You lashed out at the people telling you that you couldn't finagle things through charm and BS.
Did I miss anything?
FYI: Someone who actually knows how things work telling you how they work is not "condescension". You should know the meanings of words if you plan on teaching English.
/thread |
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ldeeep
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 20
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| BigPoppa wrote: |
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| i always call out people who condescend on forums. you should really look into the context of what people are saying. |
I saw very little condescension and a lot of you acting like a jerk.
You asked some questions and got serous, well thought out replies.
You made several seemingly serious attempts to show how the rules did not apply to you (even though they obviously did).
You were told that the rules did, indeed apply to you and that any thoughts otherwise were naive.
You lashed out at the people telling you that you couldn't finagle things through charm and BS.
Did I miss anything?
FYI: Someone who actually knows how things work telling you how they work is not "condescension". You should know the meanings of words if you plan on teaching English.
/thread |
lash out? i guess i usually post on forums where most people are more in tune with my style of communication. oh well....if everybody likes you, you're not being yourself.
there are many good ways to answer questions without acting like a complete Richard.....
con�de�scend 1. to behave as if one is conscious of descending from a superior position, rank, or dignity.
there are people like this on every forum, and i have no problems taking issue with them. it's a hobby of sort...
thanks for your post!  |
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kdynamic

Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 562 Location: Japan
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:30 am Post subject: |
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ldeeep: I don't think Japan is the place for you. If you don't have a healthy respect for those who have come before you and know more than you (that is, the ability to shut up and listen when they are giving you sound advice), and are the type who likes to make excuses and be the exception to the rules, heirarchical Japanese society will frusterate you to no end. You'd be much better off if you went somewhere else (and, I suspect, so would we).
Glenski, again, I hope jokers like this who ask for answers but don't like it when they get told the truth, never make you stop posting sound, factual information. |
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JimDunlop2

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 2286 Location: Japan
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:37 am Post subject: |
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At the risk of sounding pedantic and even being off-topic here, could we PLEASE refrain from quoting ENTIRE posts in our replies to one another?
I really don't see the point in being reminded of every word someone else wrote. If I get confused I can easily scroll up or go back a page to see what I missed -- but it makes very annoying reading to have to scroll through pages and pages of unneccesary quoted text.
(FWIW, I hate it when people do it in e-mails as well. Nothing like seeing a message like this:)
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi! How are you doing?
That will be all.
Flame on! |
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c-way
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 226 Location: Kyoto, Japan
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Ideep,
I can sense the same hint of condescension in Glenski's posts that you are picking up on. And you have seen other posters come to Glenski's defense and even add some flame of their own.
But understand, these veteran posters really don't really mean you any ill-will. It's only that they have seen so many other teachers and posters before with similar mindsets to your own. "Winging it" as you yourself put it.
But for Glenski and others this is much more than a job to pay for their extended vacation and save a bit of money while practicing Japanese. For these "lifers" teaching english is a profession no different than any other whose successful execution requires a high level of commitment, hard-work, and training.
So when people come to the forum talking about teaching in Japan like its something that can be winged, its kind of a slap in the face to these serious professionals.
Now, to be sure, there are plenty of people who have come to Japan and winged it. There are many people teaching here who are no good at their job, not dedicated and only teaching because its the one job they can do here. And many of these people have had an adverse effect on the reputation of all foreign teachers here in Japan. And this negative perception of foreign teachers as being slack and not serious about their job affects the job opportunities, compensation, job security, and long term viability of the TEFL industry.
I'm not saying that you are going to be that kind of teacher should you end up in Japan. I don't know the first thing about you or your character. I only know that a teacher who fits that bill and brings a bad name to all foreign teachers is going to sound a lot like the way you sound and have the same kind of ideas you're expressing here. And the reason that some posters are giving you a hard time is because they know it too.
(Not meant to be condescending.) |
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Leon30
Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 60 Location: South Korea
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Man, why not just finish your BA degree first.
Then it's plain sailing.
Well, getting the job at least. |
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Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Call it condescending. I don't care. I've been called worse. At the risk of repeating the obvious, read my "signature" in every post.
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| It's amazing how much "mature wisdom" resembles being too tired. |
I have been here long enough to develop a thick skin. Had one even before I came. I'll keep on posting in my own way and deflecting comments of being negative or condescending. I post facts. People who want to find loopholes to get into the system inevitably post as ideeep did, then get all hot and bothered when the answers don't meet their desires. I'm used to it.
kdynamic has a very straightforward post that I agree with.
c-way sees my posts as condescending (or at least sees how it could appear so), but makes a comment that I also agree with. I bear you no ill will, ideeep. Personally, I don't care if someone comes here to wing it or plans things down to the nth degree. What I care about is how that person makes the rest of us look. I also try to give advice so that people winging it or planning it don't have to face too many barriers, or are at least aware of those barriers. Can't be more fair than that.
I've been at this almost 9 years. I started as a change of career, ideeep, when I was older than you. You don't care about that, perhaps, but it would do you well to at least listen to the facts I present to you. If you don't, you're just going to end up like all the other loophole seekers. They get petulant, then defensive, then retaliatory and defiant, and the last we ever hear from them is words to the effect of, "I'll show you all!" Of course, in the 10 years I've been posting, I have yet to see any of those types return here to claim their victory.
So, let's start again at square one, ideeep. You have an AA degree, American nationality, darned little money, and a strong desire to come here for only a year. Fine, no problem. Just learn the immigration rules you need to follow in order to get your foot in the door.
1) Tourists can stay 90 days at a time and not work.
2) Work visas require a bachelor's degree, and depending on the type of work, you may need certain experience and/or other qualifications.
3) To study abroad, you need money and a school to sponsor you.
That's about it. No loopholes. In all seriousness and candor, what else can we do to help you? What is it you want to do? Bear in mind #1, #2, and #3 above.
You wrote that you:
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| pretty much abandoned the possibility of working, and started to plan for a visit or possibly studying abroad. |
Is that what you want to do? Ask travel questions or study questions. I can send you to Lonely Planet's web site (where you'll find me lurking there and giving advice, too, along with seasoned travelers). I'll gladly give you any study advice I can, but let's cut the cr@p and get back to business before the moderator locks this thread.
At 25, the world is your oyster, but you need the right tools to crack open its shell. |
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ldeeep
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 20
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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oookay, as you can see in this thread, it had reached a satisfactory ending where i basically said "okay, great, i'm going to visit, and also look more into studying abroad", but people still went out of their way to make unnecessary posts about my character. now, that's the type of thing i hate on forums (along with PC Nazis), and that's what i have issues with.
the only reason why i second guessed some people is that i found evidence of people getting around the requirements, and i am excellent at job interviews.....potential employers meet me and know that i'm not a phony....my last FT work, I had one year of computer training, I was surrounded by people with at least 4 year business degrees, and i was able to do a great job. i've worked in many different environments over the past 6 years, and i've proven that i can adapt and succeed. i can also read, write, and speak intermediate japanese. so, i figured if anyone had a chance of making this happen, it would be me.
as far as TEFL? throughout my life i've consistently scored in the top 1-3% on english/reading standardized tests (among others). people who know me know that i would make an excellent teacher. i'm already tutoring a TEFL student from Liberia, and it's going great. why didn't i go to college after high school? i had no clue what i wanted to do.
as far as respecting veteran posters? i certainly do initially, but it all goes out the window if my troll alarm goes off.
better perspective?
anything else need discussion? |
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Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| anything else need discussion? |
Only if you are sincere about wanting to ask questions about travel or study abroad. Your last post suggests you are not. |
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