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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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 Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Questions about teaching in China |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| I don�t agree that there are people teaching legally without degrees in China, but more so that they are teaching in the belief (or perhaps hope) that they are working legally. It is possible for a school to secure the legal documentation for a teacher based upon an application made for an alternative line of work (e.g. the school could apply for permission to employ a non-degreed teacher as a consultant but once that teacher starts teaching they are working illegally.) The other �legal� teachers are those employed on F visas obtained by employers by stating all sorts of reasons for the teacher to be here other than �salaried teaching� which is why they are here. So once again although the persons documents are in order they are not working here legally. |
Well, I know there is at least ONE in China who is teaching legally without a degree and is definitely NOT on a F visa or working here as a consultant. I am that person and have been doing so in three provinces and one autonomous region. |
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Yu
Joined: 06 Mar 2003
Posts: 1219
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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My first issue would be getting your visa. If you have trouble getting the Z visa, how are you going to be able to get the visa for your husband and children. My son's visa is dependant on my visa.
Second, buy dvds in China.
I am in China with just one child. We do not live such a Chinese life. I do not worry about his safety here. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Questions about teaching in China |
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| tw wrote: |
| Well, I know there is at least ONE in China who is teaching legally without a degree and is definitely NOT on a F visa or working here as a consultant. I am that person and have been doing so in three provinces and one autonomous region. |
tw could you give some more details about this. If indeed it is possible then it would be good to put the question to rest and the more information we all get about this the better for everyone. |
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DistantRelative
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 367
Location: Shaanxi/Xian
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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There are people with "legal" temp resident permits (not "F" visas) working all over China without degrees. This is China, "spirit of the law", "letter of the law", throw it out the window. Fact is situations here are handled on a case by case, provence by provence, as needed basis.
Personally I think what happens in many cases is schools are encouraged to hire as many degreed teachers as possible, which they try and do. Lets say a school needs 10 teachers, prior to beginning a semester. They are able to procure 8 "degreed" teachers, now they're running out of time so they contact the local PSB, make them aware of their predicament and in essence recieve a waiver to fill out their staff with 'non-degreed" individuals.
I know in my case here in Xi'an, even with a degree, I'm unable to get my FEC until I fullfil the "2 year" requirement (something I did the end of Feb). Despite that,(as far as I know) I am "legally" employed with the temp resident permit in my passport. I know a few other teachers at both private and public schools that are working on resident permits, sans degree (all have some sort of cert). The FEC seems to be a lot tougher to come by then does the "legal" visa.
Zhuhao,
Shawn |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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I have a FEC and full multi-entry one-year RPF which I used to leave China on January 21 and used to re-enter China on February 26.
But you may be right in that the school could/might have pleaded with the authorities in Changchun to give me a FEC. But then again, they only needed three new teachers and they ended up getting four. |
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pohto9
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks again for the replies everyone! I don't know if I will be able to get a position that will provide me with a legal Z Visa before I leave the US, but I will try. If I am lucky enogh, then I will go, and continue my education online in China. If not then I will just stay here with my family. I appreciate all the different views that people are presenting. |
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Itsme
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 624
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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If you have a heartbeat then you are borderline overqualified.
A sticky for future posters... you can stop after BA in ________ or TEFSKSDFXTSDF certificate. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: |
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......
Non-English gibson doesn't bother to read any of my posts (or their referents) carefully. So what he writes usually misses the point by miles. He simply wants to bask in my shadow.
I've never encountered an "English teacher" who misunderstands the written word like our N-EG. His posts are invariably good for a hearty chuckle -- and the laugh is on him.  |
Are you talking about those (air) "miles" that you are trying to "accumulate" on all those countries forums  You know a shite what others or I want, although you keep anal yzing, assuming, providing your lame forums "English lessons" or advice etc. Speaking of a coward "shadow" of one who couldn't take China, but keeps on coming back on Chinese forums to unload his ......
Keep your lame insults up and they'll always come back to your pizza stinky computer room where that "hard drive" sits in a chair racking its brains about the purpose of using its fingers 
The "chuckle" and a "laugh" is not only yours 
| Quote: |
| I don�t agree that there are people teaching legally without degrees in China, but more so that they are teaching in the belief (or perhaps hope) that they are working legally.... |
And yet another one with some poor experience about China. You have never worked in China, have you?
Cheers and beers to all hard working FTs IN CHINA as well as cheers to the ones that intend to come and work IN CHINA 
_____________________________________________________________
Don't type with your middle fingers too much |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| tw wrote: |
I have a FEC and full multi-entry one-year RPF which I used to leave China on January 21 and used to re-enter China on February 26.
But you may be right in that the school could/might have pleaded with the authorities in Changchun to give me a FEC. But then again, they only needed three new teachers and they ended up getting four. |
OK, fair enough...I certainly agree that it is possible to get the documents in such circumstances and I doubt if you could be considered to be working 'illegally' as those documents would all be legit. This would be the exception to the rule however, and I wonder whether teachers in those positions would remain vulnerable to a change of heart by the authorities or an enforcement of regulations on a spot basis.
I am not trying to call into question your work status tw, but I do feel that generally speaking it is safer to advise teachers that unless they have at least a university degree then it is highly unlikely that they will be able to obtain legal work documents. For each teacher such as yourself who finds a way through the maze I am sure that there are plenty of others that caught up in promises of legal work only to find themselves in a position that requires regular visa runs or the like. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Non-English gibson has finally lost total control of his temper and his limited English skills. I evidently touch a very sensitive and raw nerve each time I successfully take him to task.
He needs to seek treatment for his condition. |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| For each teacher such as yourself who finds a way through the maze I am sure that there are plenty of others that caught up in promises of legal work only to find themselves in a position that requires regular visa runs or the like. |
Solution: come with a Z visa. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| I evidently touch a very sensitive and raw nerve |
 you pervert 
speaking of treatments for conditions needed
keep touchin
and
cheers and beers to raw nerves of those lovely forums |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| I wonder whether teachers in those positions would remain vulnerable to a change of heart by the authorities or an enforcement of regulations on a spot basis. |
all teachers or anyone here on any kind of visa is subject to a change of heart...
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| but I do feel that generally speaking it is safer to advise teachers that unless they have at least a university degree then it is highly unlikely that they will be able to obtain legal work documents. |
safer for who?
the advice given here is tainted with poster"s agendas..no one seeking advice should give any more weight to any offering other than the credibility given to any one's opinion..not one post has been from someone in a position to give an official stance..if there is one...(now we will be illuminated with web sites as if that was the final word) the final word is if you get the paper such as TW..your in..and don't let anyone tell you different..I have watch TW's post from when he was in Dalian and the practical experience he brings to these kind of post should be given more weight than one from posters who have a financial stake in publishing and authorizing rules that many or may not be adhered too...
the best course is to try every kind of approach when seeking employment and if successful ..don;'t worry about the "falling sky" syndrome that many portray ...again ..it is for their own benefit and not in consideration of job seekers.. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I wonder whether teachers in those positions would remain vulnerable to a change of heart by the authorities or an enforcement of regulations on a spot basis. |
all teachers or anyone here on any kind of visa is subject to a change of heart... |
Visas are nothing more than permission for us to be here as guests and of course they can be revoked at any time if we breach the terms or if the legislation changes.
CJ are you trying to suggest that someone here due to an administrative error or local practice not inline with the national legislation is as safe as someone who is here more 'legitimately'?
| cj750 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| but I do feel that generally speaking it is safer to advise teachers that unless they have at least a university degree then it is highly unlikely that they will be able to obtain legal work documents. |
safer for who? |
You need to ask?
I certainly would never recommend that someone come here on the off chance that they may find a crack to slip through in some province or city somewhere in China only to have to keep their fingers crossed that the circumstances don't change. To me it is just too risky a proposition and how many posts have we seen in recent months from people who have done this and then encountered problems - Milo Baggins for one.
Far safer for everyone concerned to go the legal route. CJ are you suggesting otherwise?
| cj750 wrote: |
| the best course is to try every kind of approach when seeking employment and if successful ..don;'t worry about the "falling sky" syndrome that many portray |
That is what Milo Baggins did and what happened to him. He lost his job working illegally, got ripped off by the company that was employing him illegally, found that he couldn't get legal work here despite the type of empty reassurances such as what CJ gives here that 'everything will be okay', and then had to head home without his Chinese wife and her child.
To me it is sad that people still encourage this sort of situation. It is much easier to come here with an 'everything will be okay' attitude when you have nothing to lose, but once you settle in and establish a nice lifestyle, get yourself a girl, and make some friends - it soon becomes more important to have some sort of security. Those who don't qualify for legal employment here, and those who choose to work illegally will never have that, and just like Milo could have it all taken away at the most opportune time. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Visas are nothing more than permission for us to be here as guests and of course they can be revoked at any time if we breach the terms or if the legislation changes. |
First the Visa is a stamp allowing a holder entrance...into The country for work...and a z or a RP can be revoked at any time for any reason..and that reason doesn't have to be revealed to the holder...
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| Far safer for everyone concerned to go the legal route. CJ are you suggesting otherwise? |
No for the umpteenth time..and now try and get this through your noggin..I am saying that there should be no expectation of safety when it comes to the PRC concerning visas or permits..that a z can be revoked at anytime..and to try and sell that there is a correct way to complete a process that will make you immune to any changes in the climate or consideration given a group working i a foreign country is ill responsible and can cause an applicant to be unprepared...and to insist on this type if advice as authoritarian is little more than promotion for your website...
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found that he couldn't get legal work here despite the type of empty reassurances such as what CJ gives here that 'everything will be okay', and then had to head home without his Chinese wife and her child.
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is this an implication that I gave advice that led to someones ouster..I have never given advice as to everything will be ok..as a matter of fact I have only advised that legal or not..the chances are about the same...
but to imply that my advice was the cause is a low maneuver obtain points on this board to further the publication of your website..I will not participate any longer..why not just stick to the post from now on..don't worry bout what i have posted and treat it like an opinion..without comment ...I can no longer in clear consinous aid int he furthering of your agenda on this board... |
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