Job Discussion Forums

[cafebleu]

Leeroy - a really good topic with much food for thought. I`d like to ask - how old is Sayaka? Her view on how the Japanese view westerners seems very old style. It seems to belong to somebody in their 60s or at least 50s.

This notion that it is childish (I use that rather than `animal-like` as I find that offensive and can not see that it is anything other than racist - if you disagree try using that when speaking to anybody about the Japanese or to anybody who is Japanese. It is a racial insult, nothing less.) to show your emotions, even good ones such as being happy, seems out of place in the Japan that I know. Not always but in a number of instances the Japanese show their emotions publicly.

In Japan I have seen numerous examples of dummy spitting from elementary, junior high school and high school kids when they lose at a sport - for example, crying, which school kids do not do in the UK as you are a `bad sport`. The wailing and weeping in Japan seems very over the top in these cases.

I have seen a lot of clownish behaviour from schoolboys and young men in the age range of teenager years to mid 20s. Quite publicly in crowded places. They are acting happily or foolishly, just like any number of teenager girls.

I have seen men who are old and not so old showing their displeasure by sucking in wind through their teeth and doing it very openly. I have seen older women showing their displeasure by talking loudly and freely about what this person or that person has done.

I don`t see Japanese people arguing with each other so much (I have witnessed it once or twice on a bus when 50 something men pushed and shoved each other - so much for westerners only doing this kind of thing) but Sayaka referred to showing happiness, sadness, and any range of emotions as child-like and in a more racist way, `animal-like`.

So Leeroy - how old is Sayaka?

[Tong Dawei]

Arioch:

I asked a question in an attempt toward effective communication. I did not misquote him. BIG difference. Some would consider one's emotional state as part of their overall welfare. I think each person is responsible for their own sense of happiness generally speaking.

Example: You are happy with yourself because you persisted and made the grade.

I do agree that each partner in a loving relationship should be unflinching in support of the other when this assistance and or attention is requested either verbally or through some other understanding. Some people do not want their partner to take on the responsibility of putting the other's wants and needs on their own agenda because it can result in what Iain (who i agree with) sums up as nagging and or smothering.

[Capergirl]

I was in a relationship for 7.5 years, so here is my take on the whole happiness concept. No one can make you happy but you. If you are relying on another person to make yourself happy, you will be miserable. If you are miserable, it is you who is making you miserable, not your partner. We all measure happiness and misery differently. I think the best thing you can do when choosing a future partner is to choose someone who is generally happy with his/her life and to already be generally happy with your own.

[leeroy]

Cafebleu,

Sayaka is in her mid-twenties, and does not come across (to me) as being particularly old-fashioned. I asked her about the general feeling the Japanese had towards "the west", rather than her personally. As she has come to live, work and study in London, I doubt she hates westerners that much, or considers us to be too far inferior!

I've never been to Japan, but your observations imply that Japanese people are not as disciplined with their emotions as some are led to believe. Indeed, perhaps the "Western people behave like animals" thing is based on no solid evidence (in terms of cultural difference) whatsoever, quite possibly it is simple racism/xenophobia.

But I have been often told by East Asian students that westerners speak their minds more. My own observations in the class certainly back this up.

(Or maybe Sayaka got it wrong, maybe she misinterpreted my question, or maybe she was lying.)

I have a feeling, though, that this is not a simple 1-dimensional line between "showing your emotions more" and "showing your emotions less". Perhaps there are certain situations where Japanese people are more prone to having an outburst (such as a "losing face" situation) than westerners, and vice-versa. Within the contexts that we are most familiar with (i.e. class room ones), Japanese people tend to be a little 'colder' - though this doesn't necessarily reflect the entire social attitudes to expressing emotion as a whole.

[Roger]

Guest of Japan said a housewife student of his (hers) told that she didn't love her husband but regarded him as a "good partner".
COme to think of it - it has struck me on many occasions that CHinese girls often told me they did not "love" their future husbands but were going to marry them anyway, either for practical reasons, or because their zodias were auspicious.
This may be a major reason why they enter into a relationship with a westerner - no love but some very advantageous situation!

[dduck]

[Dave Kessel]

Since most Western gaijin living in Japan are "Anglos"- UK, US, Canada, Oz and NZ, it is ironic that these would seem " emotional" to the Japanese. To Latins- French, Spanish, Italians, and then Greeks and even Slavs, "Anglos" seem to be extremely cool and 'un'-emotional. One often hears them describe the "Anglo-Saxons" as passionless, practical and "cold". Some Arabs see Americans as distant and very much in control of their emotions. Unexpressive.

While I have heard Japanese tell me that the Americans and Brits seemed " open" and " akarui"- friendly and jovial, I have heard Latinos such as Mexicans say that Gringos were very cold, unfriendly and reserved. Grit and stoicism form the bulwark of the classical American character. As opposed to the, say, Italian " Mamma mia!!!" type behavior.

So, how much more reserved the Japanese must be to see these Westerners as "emotional" or almost as "animalistic" or "childish"!


I guess, to an Alaskan, New York is a tropical city, and to a person in coma, a paraplegic is an " athlete brimming with life" ( just kidding)

[Lynn]

[cafebleu]

Hi Leeroy - thanks for your clarification. I think Sayaka was referring to the way westerners have of speaking. Yes, I would agree (not with her xenophobic or racist sentiments connected to this) with her statements about westerners showing their feelings more openly in their speech.

The Japanese tend to control what they say - if somebody for example is officious to them or even rude (example in a shop or city hall or something), the Japanese person would not stand up for themselves as we would in the UK. They would keep smiling or have no expression and just wear it. I have had to adopt this approach, too, of somebody in a position of authority was rude to me as has happened.

It`s the same with rude public manners - in the UK we will tell people not to push us in queues or to wait their turn. The Japanese just endure which is bad for them and us I think. So much rudeness and lack of concern for people is brought about by this.

In personal relationships whether friendship, work, or with acquaintances or whatever, yes the Japanese will not speak their mind usually. Maybe with friends. I understand why but I think it lets a lot of frustration simmer. To survive as a foreigner in Japan you have to do likewise to some extent and I believe that causes unneccessary stress.

[Roger]

dduck said Westerners' love for their partner does not normally last all their married life. True, but not a fact per se, just a statistically relevant finding.
What I meant was that love and emotional attachment do occupy a decisive place before and during the first years of marriage in most western relationships; in those Chinese relationships I mentioned, love occupied no place at all, neither before, during nor after courting or later.
And, many western families I personally know were happy even 25 and 50 years after they tied the knot. This is especially true of large families, less so of couples with no child, or with one child.
And, my relationship with that French woman was still rather emotionally satisfying ten years down the road, whereas with any Chinese girl feelings decompose rather quickly.
And let me demolish the myth of everlasting Asian relationships: Chinese refrain from divorcing simply out of material considerations: often, there is no housing aavailable for the party that's got to leave the common household, as for example when one of them has an iron-rice bowl job with a state-owned business.
Divorces are steeply rising because many women realise they can get a comfy settlement upon divorcing their husbands. That's why you wonb';t see divorced folks in rural parts of the country, but you will meet many in relatively modern cities, as you will find singles aged above 30.