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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| 'If you are going to a language class of some sort, then you are a better teacher than someone who is not' appears to be the message here. |
I think Rusmeister is saying if two people have the same qualifications and are both putting in the same effort that on average a people who try to learn foreign languages are better than those who do not. He is not making a blanket statement that every teacher that studies a foreign language is better. Of course some people have natural talents that can never be learned in a classroom. |
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zorro (3)
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Jzer,
I think Rusmeister is making a blanket statement.
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But it IS a disadvantage in teaching relative to those who have and are continuing to learn L2s as they teach.
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and also...
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| it is better to have had the experience of learning a(n) L2 |
You also share the same unfounded ideology.
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| I think Rusmeister is saying if two people have the same qualifications and are both putting in the same effort that on average a people who try to learn foreign languages are better than those who do not |
Give me some verifiable empirical evidence. Or failing that, some anecdotal evidence that those who speak another language (learnt in adulthood) are on average better teachers than those who don't.
It's simply an ideology. |
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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I think Rusmeister is saying if two people have the same qualifications and are both putting in the same effort that on average people who try to learn foreign languages are better than those who do not |
Yep. I'd go along with that; it fits with my personal observations. |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Someone mentioned motivation earlier.
What about teacher A who doesn't give a sh*t about teaching. His/her motivation is to take advantage of classroom time to practice his/her L2.
Teacher B does care about teaching, tries to keep up with latest reseach, methodology, tries new things in the classroom. etc.
You can not stereotype and say just because you speak a language you are a better teacher.
I'd like to think that I am a better teacher now than when I started out in 1992. Why? because I learned the local language or because I have spent time and money investing in my education. I'd like to think it is the latter. |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| More specifically, do you mean in their understanding of how to explain grammatical concepts to students? |
Maybe, but at least as much, I mean understanding the gap between explaining a grammatical concept, and teaching it. And having students who actually learn it. A good example of what I mean happened in my Spanish, over the last several years- In my highest level Spanish classes, I learned the rules governing the use of subjunctive tenses in unreal conditionals. These rules were explained really well- so well, in fact, but by the end of the course, I could have explained them to others, if anybody was curious. I still screwed them up in speech, pretty much all the time, though.
But over time, knowing the rules, I was able to focus more clearly on what the people around me (Spanish natives) were doing with their conditionals. And to practice doing it myself. And eventually, I came to the point of being able to produce the structures, to say what I want to say accurately, more often than not.
Which leads me to:
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Do you have any examples of typical assumptions?
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One that I run into a lot is the "Why do they keep making that mistake?!? I've TOLD them that it isn't right!" falacy. Good teachers, whether monolingual or multilingual, understand that being told is, at best, just a jumping off point for language acquisition. It doesn't solve problems by itself. Internalization through practice, and through exposure, has to follow, and is really the biggest part of the process. Expecting students to stop making an error because they've been told that it's wrong, and know this intellectually, is intuitive, but incorrect.
As in my Spanish example, I was TOLD about unreal conditionals 5 or 6 years ago, and I knew intellectually how they work. But only through a process of internalization did my knowledge become part of a pattern of meaningful use. I don't know whether the teacher of that course actually thought that explaining it was enough. But it wasn't.
I want to be clear, though. While I believe that first hand experience of one's own "language learner self" is helpful to teachers, I know that it isn't a magical formula. It's possible to be a great student of languages, and a mediocre teacher; likewise, it's possible to be monolingual and a great teacher. But I believe that on balance, experience as a language learner tends to help.
It certainly isn't the only thing that helps, though.
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| I'd like to think that I am a better teacher now than when I started out in 1992. |
Me too! I'm certainly working hard enough at it.
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| Why? because I learned the local language or because I have spent time and money investing in my education. |
I tend to think that both will have been factors. When I meet teachers who are sincerely interested in improving their teaching, both of these are things that I would recommend that they do. And things that I try to do myself.
Best,
Justin |
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zorro (3)
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Essentially there is no right or wrong here. My position is that I am firmly opposed to people 'assuming' that if you have learnt a language you are on measure 'usually' a better teacher.
This is all.
I happen to be an excellent teacher who can't speak another language with any degree of fluency. Why? Just because.  |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| zorro (3) wrote: |
Rusmeister,
Your response is just perfect for what I was trying to say about ideologies, particularly the part about 'it's common sense'. I am wary of anything that screams common sense. It was common sense that Native speakers were better at teaching than NNS, but this we now know to be not true (from a balanced perspective that is). A more extreme example; it was common sense that women should stay at home, look after children and not think about a career. Another one; it was common sense that black people were of inferior intellect. Anything that says 'everybody knows that' should automatically sound the alarm bells.
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Anyone who rejects common sense, uh, lacks common sense. We can have no common ground on that one, I guess. Personally, I like the Russian for it ("zdravy smysl'" - "healthy thinking") better than the English.
Your examples, except for the second one(for good historical reasons), cannot have been considered 'common sense'. Stereotypes born of ignorance are not examples of common sense. A good examples is:
it's common sense to look both ways before you cross the street.
Providing examples that do not actually represent common sense does not disprove its validity.
No one's trying to say you're a worse teacher because you don't speak a second language, zorro. All I was saying is that it is a clear advantage to have learned one and experienced what your students experience. THAT is common sense. |
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zorro (3)
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for upsetting you Rusmeister. I believed that I was debating with equals who had a(n), uh, rudimentary understanding of critical linguistics. This is obviously not the case.
Have a read of Foucault, Fairclough, Habermas, Bourdieu etc. I'm not name dropping. I just happen to know more than you on this subject.
Enjoy. |
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OleLarssen
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 337
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Retreating into academics? Grow up. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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zorro 3 wrote:
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| Have a read of Foucault, Fairclough, Habermas, Bourdieu etc. I'm not name dropping. I just happen to know more than you on this subject. |
zorro3 wrote:
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| Give me some verifiable empirical evidence. |
zorro has just contridicted himself. He wants to see empirical evidence and then latter tries to quote philosophers that do not always use empirical evidence. |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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I find this topic to be really interesting.
So do you guys wanna discuss it? Or just slag each other off?
Zorro(3) may be a great teacher, and monolingual.
Others who are entering into this "insult-fest" may be terrific, and total polyglots.
This is not the issue.
The issue is whether speaking/learning another language is helpful to teachers, and whether not doing so is detrimental.
Those of you who feel that it's something important for teachers to do, why do you feel that way? (Note: Not WHY do you feel someone else is WRONG.)
Those who don't, Why? (Again, with the same caveat)
I was enjoying this thread.
But the kindergarten theatrics aren't amusing.
Best,
Justin |
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mlomker
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 378
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Trullinger wrote: |
The issue is whether speaking/learning another language is helpful to teachers, and whether not doing so is detrimental.
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Was there really disagreement regarding whether or not it was helpful? Even the dissenter on this thread mentioned taking a few introductory classes.
Reading between the lines, I get the impression that Zorro finds foreign language study difficult but still believes that he can be an effective English teacher. I agree, perhaps that fact makes Zorro even more compassionate regarding his students' progress. I don't think Zorro's responses have left him looking very mature, though.
Foreign language study helps to reinforce the concepts learned in an L2 theory class. The School for International Training requires their masters students to take one term of undergraduate language study, in a language that they've never studied before, for that reason. They are one of the more respected schools in the business, so I'm left to assume that there is something to it.
Last edited by mlomker on Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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OleLarssen
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 337
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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He started it!
On a more serious note, like I already pointed out, I think it has a lot to do with being able to view the language you're teaching as a construct, not as a natural extension of yourself. Like many have already made a point of, empathy - being able to connect with your students - is important. Understanding what they are going through helps with this. More importantly, it allows self-critisism on a different level - understanding what might work and what probably won't based on personal experience. |
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teacheringreece
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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I'll try and get some more constructive discussion going by elaborating on one my points earlier.
The main reason why I mentioned that I find it worrying that so many 'experts' in ELT have never successfully learned a second language is that the very nature of teaching means that it is extremely hard to set up research projects to produce empirical evidence of what works in the classroom and what doesn't. There have never (to my knowledge) been any wide-scale studies comparing the effectiveness (just for example, not something to get into here) the communicative approach and grammar translation. It's just too expensive, there are too many variables, and there are also ethical issues to consider.
So, in the absence of reliable studies, the ELT world is led by influential academics and authors. But if these are not successful language learners, and there is little empirical evidence to draw on, they really are basing what they say on their own assumptions and anecdotal experiences as teachers. But why should we follow what these people say if they are not themselves successful language learners? What can they reliably tell us about teaching? How do they know that what they feel is right as a teacher is actually right for students? |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Are you an SITer, Mlomker? Would appreciate your feedback, as I'm looking into doing an MA...
I like your point about how finding languages difficult may actually be an advantage to a teacher- in terms of understanding student difficulties.
It's interesting- I find that the process of language learning is essential to the process of learning to be a better teacher. For me.
BUt some of the most gifted linguists aren't patient with students...
Best,
Justin |
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