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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
In any case, don't let a little negative prejudice get you down.
Keep hope alive because its what keeps you alive.
Cheers all!
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Thanks. AFter skimming that post I was in need of some hope. Anyway - best laugh I've had all day.  |
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3rdEye
Joined: 19 Oct 2003
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:01 pm Post subject: No need to be grumpy |
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 grumpy?
 laughter?
laughter is a lot better than being grumpy
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Laura C
Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 211
Location: Saitama
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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cheeky, smooj!  �5000 of course spent a long time ago.  But I had some fun spending it, before going back to 9-5 hell...still, only 4 days to go before I quit for ever! |
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Laura C
Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 211
Location: Saitama
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| sorry, sHmooj! |
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J-Pop
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 215
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:07 pm Post subject: a Safe bet |
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| guest of Japan wrote: |
| Well, I guess my previous request was too much to ask. |
I would say that is a fair & reasonable guess. |
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J-Pop
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 215
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:30 pm Post subject: Interesting subject |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
. . . .
This is interesting and if you have time I'd like to explain your position a bit further so that I can be sure I understand you, please.
. . . How do you tell what is a 'mistake' and what is merely linguistic change or shift? How do you account for varietals where the rules of the game actually disagree as to what is acceptable?
. . . as someone with rather a lot of training in linguistic theory I'm rather interested in the subject.
(And do you really want to get into this sort of discussion?)
. . . the mention of Wittgenstein should have been enough to warn you where I'd go with it all, assuming you've had a well-rounded education in Philosophy of Language and Linguistics. . . .
That is an interesting position. It raises a question though: Can you explain how language drift occurs, please?
I apologise if I didn't take part in the developing flamefest you and...whomever it was, had going. As I hope I explained above, I was replying to the bits I happened to find interesting and have some little expertise within.
I must admit that I have been having a difficult time teasing out the content of your and the other persons posts. Anyways, as you've made clear, that's all my fault. I'll try harder next time, eh? 
hugs
G Cthulhu |
GC,
I personally find this topic--& associated issues--quite interesting. Your post is thoughtful & well written. However:
--the subject may be a candidate for a thread of its own. Assuming you're willing to get it started, I'd be happy to contribute (to the extent that I'm able). I've observed a number of posters here who could & hopefully would, contribute some thoughts.
Actually, on (or near) some of the very issues you raise there have been some comments made. One post was in the "Newbie Forum" (I believe) in the thread, "How much do you earn per hour." One of the last posts made, by denise, touches indirectly (I think) on some of the issues you raise. (It seems somewhat incongruous, I admit, these comments would be found in that thread--but it's true! )
--for those readers perusing this thread--who might not have the theoretical background (& accompanying vocabulary) in linguistics & philosophy of language, it may be helpful if you would provide brief definitions of (for example) "language drift," & other concepts.
Thus, those interested in such matters, readers might be able to benefit from your studies. Wittengstein, in particular, developed some striking & intriguing theories, yes? It might be kind of hard to do his ideas justice, given the confines of this particular type of format 
None of this is intended as negative criticism--either overt, or covert 
Just a few thoughts, FWIW. 
Regards,
P.S. MY, how this thread has uh . . . "drifted" away from country versus city.  |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| Laura C wrote: |
| sorry, sHmooj! |
Woooooowwwwieeeeeeee. An English teacher spelt my name right! LauraC, you are a quite a rarity on this forum, I can tell you. |
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cafebleu
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:25 am Post subject: |
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Interesting - for such a delicate little petal, professing himself to be `hurt` and apparently astounded at debate and discussion that doesn`t happen to subscribe to his opinions, 3rd eye certainly knows how to be bigoted, bitter, and twist other people`s words.
His attack on my reference to my Chinese partner only serves to reinforce this. It will be clear to any thinking, open minded person that the Japan experience will be different for everybody - and this is particularly true if you are Chinese, Korean, Filipino etc. We `hakujin` experience racism but we are in a much more privileged position than our Asian friends.
That is the basis of my opinion on living in the countryside - for some it will be a positive experience, for some it may be a negative one based on differing circumstances. Go into inaka with your eyes open - don`t think that because the surface seems pleasant the reality is, too. It may not be the case. As for feeding 3rd eye`s rambling, fundamentalist attacks on me - sorry, petal, that`s over as of now! |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| cafebleu wrote: |
No, I don`t think there is `one true English out there` but I know what IS English in its casual or slang sense and I know what isn`t. A number of mistakes have been creeping into even accepted casual ways of using English and sorry to disappoint you as you obviously thought you were putting me in my place, but `anyways` isn`t one of them.
Unless you count it as valid Japlish but it is not even Japlish. As I pointed out, there is a tendency among Japanese speakers to make plurals where only the singular form is applicable and a tendency to drop the s from plural words. `Anyways` sounds like this kind of English - which is not English, whether formal, casual or slang.
Hmm - who is grumpy, I wonder? At least when I reply to people`s posts I reply to a substantial matter, and points regarding the English used are not the main focus of my post. Unlike yours .... |
Mistakes don't creep into language. Changes creep into language. Languages are fluid and constantly changing. "Anyways" may be on its way to becoming an accepted alternative to "anyway".
Speaking of whether something is correct or not when said by a native speaker is always a bit tricky and it's usually safer to talk about whether something is standard or non-standard.
The only real definition of whether something is standard in a language is whether or not it sounds correct to a majority of the speakers of a language. "Anyways" sounds fine to me. I understand its meaning and it sounds just a-okay. Perhaps I'm in a minority on this, but if so it would be better to call it a deviation or something rather than a mistake. If "anyways" sounds acceptable to a majority of speakers of English, then it's a part of standard English.
Perhaps it sounds acceptable to speakers in a particular region. In that case, it would be part of that region's variant of English. It could also be a class thing, an ethnic thing, or a who-knows-what-else thing.
It's like when people claim that "ain't" isn't (or ain't ) English. It's clearly English because I can understand what it means. It's just not "proper" or "formal" or "educated" English. However, since most Enlgish can understand it, it's clearly English.
For example, I have a native-speaker friend who uses "which" to introduce relative clauses about people. I don't know where he picked that up, but it's clearly not standard English. However, I wouldn't tell him that he's mistaken in his understanding of his native language. At most, I would just let him know that he's using a non-standard form that might sound strange or uneducated or confusing to some people.
Also, I'll just mention that it sounds a bit high-and-mighty for someone to claim that they know everything that is and is not acceptable in casual English. It's just impossible for anybody to know all the acceptable casual variations and deviations in every region in which English is spoken. |
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3rdEye
Joined: 19 Oct 2003
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:47 am Post subject: Hmm... |
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| cafebleu wrote: |
Interesting - for such a delicate little petal, professing himself to be `hurt` and apparently astounded at debate and discussion that doesn`t happen to subscribe to his opinions, 3rd eye certainly knows how to be bigoted, bitter, and twist other people`s words.
His attack on my reference to my Chinese partner only serves to reinforce this. It will be clear to any thinking, open minded person that the Japan experience will be different for everybody - and this is particularly true if you are Chinese, Korean, Filipino etc. We `hakujin` experience racism but we are in a much more privileged position than our Asian friends.
That is the basis of my opinion on living in the countryside - for some it will be a positive experience, for some it may be a negative one based on differing circumstances. Go into inaka with your eyes open - don`t think that because the surface seems pleasant the reality is, too. It may not be the case. As for feeding 3rd eye`s rambling, fundamentalist attacks on me - sorry, petal, that`s over as of now! |
Wow! Well, I suppose that qualifies as "negative and offensive" words. Force of habit perhaps?
(By the way, "we hakujin"? Thats another preconception I think.)
I attempted to give you a suggestion to look inside yourself as well. Unfortunately, you seem to have misunderstood it as a "fundamentalist attack". Colourful words, but sorry, I'm not into that. But of course you are free to violently reject any constructive suggestions if you wish, and keep looking suspiciously outside yourself for problems and others to blame.
But honestly, if you keep up with that kind of negative destructive attitude, then problems will surely keep coming to you. "Misery loves company" as they say. And also consider that you can also cause problems for others (its a two way street). But as you have clearly pointed out with your numerous negative preconceptions of people, that is already a given.
I've been mostly fortunate to meet and make friends with positive people with healthy outlooks, from various backgrounds: "Japanese", "Westerners", "East Asians", "Peruvians", "Iranians", "Thai", "Filipinos", etc, all kinds of multicultural people. As you may have noticed, I always like meeting people. We always talk openly about social issues, but nobody ever became as obsessed by bitterness, resentment and hatred, as you seem to be. You really should lighten up you know.
Though I did meet someone very negative a few years ago. Come to think of it she reminds me of you, given your self-descriptions and obvious attitude. She had a self-absorbed seige mentality and only had harsh and negative things to say. Your real name wouldn't happen to start with the letter "J" would it? Ever been to JALT? In any case, you might be "happy" to know there's another person who fits your negative character. Maybe you two should get together and compare notes on those "bad old Japanese women" etc. Might get a bit cynical though.
PS: If I'm a "delicate little petal", then that makes you a what?
Triple Happy Cheers! (You seem to need it the most)
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Hmm... |
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okay, so, would anyone *else* actually be interested in a discussion about language theory itself? :)
and if so, what exactly? |
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denise
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 3419
Location: finally home-ish
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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What, you mean serious intellectual discourse?!?!?
How 'bout, as suggested by J-pop (I think... maybe you suggested it yourself?) regional variations? "ownership" of language? language play (the coining of new words, double meanings, etc.)? trying to pin down some notion of "acceptability"? (which was done quite nicely by a previous poster in this thread--if a word is clear to a majority of speakers, then it's acceptable)
I will try to keep up...
d |
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Gouki
Joined: 12 Mar 2003
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Can someone help me use "anyways" in a sentence please?
I am baffled by this word as it doesn't make sense to me.
"Always" is ok, but anyways? |
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markosonlines
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 49
Location: Ise
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:36 am Post subject: |
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Anyways = anyway, kinda like yo = you/your or Markos = Mark
Markos |
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Sherri
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 749
Location: The Big Island, Hawaii
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