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yamahuh
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Karaoke Hell
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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: Private Classes; best way to start? |
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Sorry, but the search function just doesn't work for me and I've got a couple of basic questions regarding finding private students and acceptable fees.
If you've been sponsored for an ARC by a legit employer then I'm assuming that there's nothing to stop you from teaching privately a few hours per week to subsidise your earnings.
I know you're not 'supposed' to but a conversation in English with a couple of Taiwanese nationals over coffee isn't illegal is it?
Anyway, if the employer has no problem with the sideline then it would appear to be an attractive alternative to being a clown for Kindy classes 
So here are my questions:
What's the best way to source prospective students and how much is a reasonable fee to charge per student per hour? |
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MomCat
Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Hi yamahuh,
It's illegal. But it's overlooked.
If you're teaching privates outside your contract hours then there's no reason to tell your employer. The less they know about your life outside of work, the less they will be able to try to control.
Private clients found me, not the other way around. I don't especially like privates because of the unreliability factor, so I can't offer any great ways to find them. But I can say that if you go where your potential clients might be and are friendly and approachable people will ask you about lessons.
I'm going to suggest 1000NT +/- per hour because that's what we can get here in Hsinchu. I suspect it varies in other cities.
Good luck,
Cat |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: Re: Private Classes; best way to start? |
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| yamahuh wrote: |
| if the employer has no problem with the sideline then it would appear to be an attractive alternative to being a clown for Kindy classes |
Most employers will not want you to take on private classes outside of the work that they offer for a few reasons:
1. it is illegal;
2. it may interfere with the work that they want you to do (they don't want the hassles of you turning down extra classes because you are busy elsewhere or because you can earn more money teaching somewhere else;
3. they may be concerned that you will use their materials or steal their students
Therefore most people who do teach privates do it on the sly.
| yamahuh wrote: |
| What's the best way to source prospective students and how much is a reasonable fee to charge per student per hour? |
I guess that it depends upon how much you are worth as far as how much you charge. My guess is that most foreigners teaching privates charge NTD600-800, but some charge more. If you are good at what you do and the students feel that they are learning then they will have no problem paying, but if you are charging quite high and getting no results then your students will probably soon drop off.
Word of mouth is of course the best way to get students, but there are a couple of websites that you could find useful www.forumosa.com and www.myu.com.tw You may find that you get more 'language exchange' types there than real students however. |
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yamahuh
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Karaoke Hell
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Our employer has told us directly that they don't mind if we take private students so long as we don't poach from their clients (obvious enough) or use their materials which, quite frankly are sh ite!!
The main reason I'm asking about 'private' classes is that I don't feel our school is going to be able to meet their commitment as far as promised hours per week. If that's the case then I'm going to need to supplement my hours. In turn if that means I have to turn down the occasional class that is offered to 'help out' my employer because of a scheduling conflict then so be it.
Thanks for the info folks. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: |
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, privates are only discussed as technically illegal because, basically, you are not entitled to work anywhere but at the company registered on your ARC card. The practice of teaching privates is usually referred to as illegal only by logical extension by those foreigners concerned about legality. I'm pretty sure the Taiwanese aren't viewing private students as work in the formal sense. I've even had functionaries at the ARC issuing authority ask me to tutor them. At any rate, don't worry about it at all.
How to source? Just be here teaching and someone will ask you sooner or later. If you wish, there are sites on which you can post your availability if you are anxious to get started right away. Rate? Typically, your hourly rate at work is a good guide. |
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yamahuh
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Karaoke Hell
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Where are you located Taoyuan Steve?
Anywhere near the armpit of the county Pingjhen (forgive my spelling)? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| I've said it before and I'll say it again, privates are only discussed as technically illegal because, basically, you are not entitled to work anywhere but at the company registered on your ARC card. The practice of teaching privates is usually referred to as illegal only by logical extension by those foreigners concerned about legality. I'm pretty sure the Taiwanese aren't viewing private students as work in the formal sense. I've even had functionaries at the ARC issuing authority ask me to tutor them. At any rate, don't worry about it at all. |
I will certainly agree that it is unlikely that you would get into trouble for teaching privates as quite honestly you would have to be pretty unlucky to get caught - a disgruntled student or perhaps a sting operation. Both rather unlikely.
However, it is illegal, and that is not just a perception of some foreigners. Even volunteer work outside of the work that you do for your employer is illegal and there are cases on record where foreigners were deported for doing unpaid work outside of their employer.
I have never heard of anyone getting deported for teaching privates, and as I mention above it is unlikely that anyone would ever know, however it is illegal for those who have ARC's through employers and therefore due dilligence should be exercised by those who do teach privately. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| I've said it before and I'll say it again, privates are only discussed as technically illegal because, basically, you are not entitled to work anywhere but at the company registered on your ARC card. The practice of teaching privates is usually referred to as illegal only by logical extension by those foreigners concerned about legality. I'm pretty sure the Taiwanese aren't viewing private students as work in the formal sense. I've even had functionaries at the ARC issuing authority ask me to tutor them. At any rate, don't worry about it at all. |
I will certainly agree that it is unlikely that you would get into trouble for teaching privates as quite honestly you would have to be pretty unlucky to get caught - a disgruntled student or perhaps a sting operation. Both rather unlikely.
However, it is illegal, and that is not just a perception of some foreigners. Even volunteer work outside of the work that you do for your employer is illegal and there are cases on record where foreigners were deported for doing unpaid work outside of their employer.
I have never heard of anyone getting deported for teaching privates, and as I mention above it is unlikely that anyone would ever know, however it is illegal for those who have ARC's through employers and therefore due dilligence should be exercised by those who do teach privately. |
I think, when I've been approached for private lessons repeatedly by those responsible for issuing ARCs and enforcing regulations, it's fair to say tutoring is not something for which one needs to exercise "due dilligence". Never heard of anyone ever having trouble doing privates, nor has anyone I've ever talked to about it. It's a non-issue. I think the only time you'd have an issue is if you had a powerful enemy who wanted you kicked out, in which case they're just as likely to find another offence (especially in Taiwan's deliberately murky regulatory environment) to get you expelled. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| I think, when I've been approached for private lessons repeatedly by those responsible for issuing ARCs and enforcing regulations, it's fair to say tutoring is not something for which one needs to exercise "due dilligence". |
I think that you make more of that than it is worth. Just because those individuals you refer to choose to ignore, or perhaps don't even realize, how the law applies to the teaching of privates doesn't give you immunity nor does it make it okay. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that a person in a position of authority made an error that impacted negatively upon a foreigner.
We all know that teachers who teach kindergarten classes likely teach the children of the very people whose job it is to outlaw such classes. I won't attempt to explain that as it is pretty much just the way it is, but what is clear is that those teachers and just as vulnerable as any kindy teacher for getting deported should the hand of the law come down upon them.
We are agreed that there is probably very little chance for getting caught and therefore very little chance of facing repercussions, but to do something that you know is illegal without exexcising due dilligence just seems to me to go against logic. In fact that is just the sort of attitude that teachers who are deported seem to all have in common - "it will never happen to me"
Given the choice between teaching illegally at another school or teaching privates illegally I know which way I would jump, but I still wouldn't get too cocky about it! |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| I think, when I've been approached for private lessons repeatedly by those responsible for issuing ARCs and enforcing regulations, it's fair to say tutoring is not something for which one needs to exercise "due dilligence". |
I think that you make more of that than it is worth. Just because those individuals you refer to choose to ignore, or perhaps don't even realize, how the law applies to the teaching of privates doesn't give you immunity nor does it make it okay. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that a person in a position of authority made an error that impacted negatively upon a foreigner.
We all know that teachers who teach kindergarten classes likely teach the children of the very people whose job it is to outlaw such classes. I won't attempt to explain that as it is pretty much just the way it is, but what is clear is that those teachers and just as vulnerable as any kindy teacher for getting deported should the hand of the law come down upon them.
We are agreed that there is probably very little chance for getting caught and therefore very little chance of facing repercussions, but to do something that you know is illegal without exexcising due dilligence just seems to me to go against logic. In fact that is just the sort of attitude that teachers who are deported seem to all have in common - "it will never happen to me"
Given the choice between teaching illegally at another school or teaching privates illegally I know which way I would jump, but I still wouldn't get too *beep* about it! |
Clark, you are being obtuse on this. You cannot even stay exclusively on this topic, instead drawing comparisons with kindergarten teaching. Apples and oranges. Kindergartens, undocumented second jobs and formal postings of any kind outside the scope of your work permit are illegal and can much more easily be proven and prosecuted as such. The risks, however slight, are real and people have been deported for such practices. Not so with privates.
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| but to do something that you know is illegal without exexcising due dilligence just seems to me to go against logic. |
You are being vague here and deliberately so to suit your rhetorical purpose. Due dilligence? Get off it. There is either a real danger or there isn't. You admit there isn't, so what is "due dilligence" in this situation? 20 hail Marys and a visit to the pastor to confess your sins against the letter of the law in the ROC (according to some interpretations, anyway)? Logic...Taiwan...? Didn't you just say that kindy teachers teach the children of the very people who make it illegal for foreigners to work in kindies?
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| nor does it make it okay. |
Forgive me, for I have sinned. Obviously, it is morally wrong to tutor in Taiwan.
| Quote: |
| should the hand of the law come down upon them. |
What's the likelihood of that, Clark? Provide one confirmed and documented case of a teacher being detained and deported for tutoring in a coffee shop. If you cannot, then admit the reality: privates are an accepted practice in Taiwan. There is zero will to enforce any real or imagined work permit violations in this regard (and I am not convinced tutorring is even viewed as work in the formal sense by authorities). Further, any potential enforcement would be virtually impossible, given the burden of proof needed to prosecute anything in Taiwan.
Privates are the only virtually guaranteed safe method for supplimenting a teacher's income in Taiwan, without acquiring additional work permits.
Due dilligence? Make sure your students show up and pay you on time. Aside from that, there's nothing to worry about. The legal-beagle, western interpretation of Chinese regulations has no relevence to the real state of affairs at all. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: |
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TaoyuanSteve I suggest that you re-read what I posted above as your latest post indicates that you either haven't done that or that you just didn't understand what I wrote.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| ou cannot even stay exclusively on this topic, instead drawing comparisons with kindergarten teaching. Apples and oranges. |
You missed the point entirely here!
My comment about the kindy situation was not as you suggest a comparison of the legalities and relative dangers of kindy teaching vs. privates.
My comment was specifically related to the fact that on a number of occasions you have suggested that teaching privates must be okay as the FAP officers who processed your documents asked you to teach them privately. My point was simply that this does not make it legal. An example being the situation with kindy teaching which we are all familiar with whereby plenty of legislators and police officers (the people in charge of enforcing the laws related to teaching English in Taiwan) have their own kids enrolled in the programs that they would deport us for should the need arise.
In your case and the example that you give with the FAP officers, were you to be caught you would also be in trouble and not immune due to the student you were teaching.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| You are being vague here and deliberately so to suit your rhetorical purpose. Due dilligence? Get off it. There is either a real danger or there isn't. You admit there isn't, so what is "due dilligence" in this situation? |
To me due dilligence means to use one's common sense in avoiding problems.
Coming to a public message board and suggesting that it must be okay because no one has gotten in trouble for it (to our knowledge), or because some guy at the FAP asked you to teach him privately doesn't seem to me to be a good idea. But maybe it's just me!
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| Didn't you just say that kindy teachers teach the children of the very people who make it illegal for foreigners to work in kindies? |
Not sure what your point is, but mine is pretty simple. Why rely upon others to dictate whether you get to stay in Taiwan or not? We know the laws, and we know what is legal and what is not. Forget about whether it is enforced evenly or even fairly and keep your own yard in order if you don't want to get into trouble.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| What's the likelihood of that, Clark? Provide one confirmed and documented case of a teacher being detained and deported for tutoring in a coffee shop. |
As I have stated in both of my above posts I have never heard of a foreigner being deported for teaching privates, but considering that we all know of cases of foreigners being deported for even doing voulntary unpaid work outside of their employer that sponsors their ARC I am not as willing as you apparently are to suggest that it won't happen.
Most foreign teachers teach privates on the side and most if not all have never had any problems, but anyone who is new to the island best be aware that it is not legal and that there could be repercussions if you are caught so my advice is to do it discreetly.
I do not share the views of some that just because no one has been caught before means that no one ever will, and in fact going from precedents in other areas of life here I think it only a matter of time before some unfortunate sole posts on this board that he or she is being deported for exactly this infraction. My advice - don't be too c.o.c.k.y and keep your head down to make sure that it is not you who is the first case! |
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Toe Save
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 202
Location: 'tween the pipes.........
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Boys, boys, boys! How dare you have an argument without me. I feel so left out.
So in I jump:
TS, if you are so c*cksure that you won't get in trouble, why not advertise in the local paper that you are ready, willing and able to take on all comers? No? Why not?
Cuz it's ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me add that if someone at the FAP asked me to teach them privately, alarm bells would ring loud and clear and they would peal, "STINGGGGG!"
Clark is, as usual, being very astute with his advice. Teach privately at your own risk. The risk is minimal to negligable, but it is still a risk. I don't teach privates, nor do I volunteer at a hospice nor do I work under the table. I am not going to risk my residency in the slightest. That's just me. Sure I could make heaps more money. A lot of folks do. But I have invested everything I have in a comfortable lifestyle and am not willing to sacrifice my good standing with the government of Taiwan for the sake of a few extra bucks. If I need more money, I'll take on more hours with my sponsoring school.
That is all. |
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yamahuh
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Karaoke Hell
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Man, oh man!
I feel like a kid with a big stick who just smacked a hornets nest 
Nevertheless guys, thanks for the illuminating discourse.
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