Job Discussion Forums

[arioch36]

Sorry, the **beep* is the "N" word..nigg...I gues we can not use such a word in a conversation. PC at work. PC serving to prevent people from being able to talk about social problems.

I told my students you can not combat discrimination until you can bring it to light. Can you do this without being able to use such words in a conversation?

[Afra]

I teach in the Gulf and most of my students need some English for work. They are all fairly good communicators, although accuracy isn't top priority for them, but they are concerned about saying the right thing in terms of not being rude to the person they are speaking to. When I hear them use words or phrases that are not pc, in my opinion, I save them for a fun lesson on 'things not to say or taboo words'. They enjoy the lesson so they remember the more polite ways of saying the same thing and I don't usually hear the terms again.
I feel that if our students will be using English in a public situation, as mine do at work, or they hope to study in an English speaking country, they need to know that there are some things which aren't considered acceptable. I'm always grateful for this kind of correction when I use a language which is not my own. However, there are things which aren't 'correct' in the UK, which might be OK in another country where English is an official language - the misuse of back side comes to mind!

[leeroy]

Interestingly enough...

As I was waiting for the tube ("underground train") today, I bumped into my student (whom I had just finished teaching).

We got chatting about how insane London house prices are (a parking space in Kensington costs �40,000. A fucking parking space!) - and I asked him where he lived.

"Oh, "he said, "Ealing. Bat iss no a nice place. Too many black people, you know?"

"Yep", I said, "I know exactly what you mean."

I don't think Fabian is a particularly racist guy, he seems to get on well enough with a Tanzanian student in the class. He had simply made the same observations that most make after living in London for a few months. Generally, areas with a high proportion of black people are not very nice to live in... This is more a statistical observation than a racial one, in London there is a clear correlation between house prices and "darker skinned communities". Curiously, this is not something that Londoners will freely bring up in conversation (for fear of being branded "racist", perhaps?) - but students happily will.

Had Fabian had the linguistic resources available, I believe he would have said

"Actually Lee, Ealing is not ideal - owing perhaps, in part, to it's ethnic diversity. Although the transport is convenient and my accomodation itself is very affordable, I have security concerns that are clearly linked to the economic background of Ealing's (largely immigrant) community."

But Fabian is Intermediate level, and not a particularly strong one at that. "Too many black people" is a lot simpler, and he is conveying essentially the same message.

Oh yeah, and so to continue...

"PC", for me, is more a style of communication than a way of thinking...

[shmooj]

Great example Leeroy. One question: were you offended by his comments? If not, there was no need for PC in that situation was there? I think your response was very good too. But how many others would be as understanding and considerate as you when talking to him?

[Dr.J]

[dmb]

All my students have maids, drivers and so on. They look at all Asians as servants. Because they all are here. Not very pc but to them it is a fact of life.

[Wolf]

[Lynn]

[leeroy]

Thanks for the replies, guys...

What Fabian wanted to do was to illustrate that the area he lived in wasn't very nice. A quick and easy way to do this was to point out that "many black people" lived there. It would be easy to infer racism from his comment - but (I think) I know better. He was not implying

"Black people lived there therefore it is bad"

he was saying

"My area is bad, and, as you know, typically 'bad' areas have a high proportion of black people - which mine does."

Lynn, your comments are interesting, and touch on a personal interest of mine. (Sad, or what? )

To what extent are we teachers of culture? Naturally, language does not exist in its singularity and some elements of cultural education must be included in any linguistic demonstration/instruction/presentation.

It doesn't hurt to say "Don't say that in London/New York - because if you do you'll get beaten up!". All this is is a warning.

But I'd draw the line at telling students what to think. My responsibilities lie in making sure that the students express themselves accurately - if this means being able to communicate small-minded racist bullsh*t then so be it - so long as they are aware of the inherent dangers of doing so in a western country.

[Lynn]

[leeroy]

Lynn

Fabian was wise enough to lower his voice as he said it - I think he was pragmatic enough to know that to say such a thing in the presence of black people was not a wise idea! We were on the platform, and no-one else was in earshot.

I too was subtle in my response - the whole point was that both of us were aware that we were not communicating a racist concept, but that it was easy to (falsely) infer racism from it (from an eavesdropper's point of view). He knew that to say such a thing in London is technically wrong, but understood that I (as his English teacher) would understand. At least, I hope so...

P.S.
(Sure, there are lots of black people in London. My first ever girlfriend was ethnically of African origin, in fact.)

[Dr.J]

I'll go out on a limb here. I think it's perfectly appropriate to communicate to students your own beliefs. You don't have to coerce them to agree, but if you really think what you believe is true, then you are being a little hypocritical by not saying anything at all.

Teaching is like being a doctor, nurse or policeman (except with less pay and less respect, and you can't carry a gun) - you can't do the job properly without confronting morality at some point.

[shmooj]

Will your limb support two of us.

I agree wholeheartedly. I often share how I feel on an issue with my students and simply could not shut up if I felt a viewpoint that was unacceptable to me was being held and communicated to other students in my class. Like Dr.J, I wouldn't force others to agree or copy my opinion but accepting it and possibly disagreeing in an inoffensive way are two skills they definitely need more practice in if they are going to survive out there.

[kattie72]

I teach in Northern Italy, which is not yet multiracial, and where the majority of people never move away from their home town.

I often get extremely racist comments in class about anyone who isn't Italian, basically, They even have some extremely offensive names for people who come from the South of Italy(!) For them a black/asian person is "a foreigner" full stop.

This is always difficult to handle, especially when the person speaking has no idea of the offense they could cause. I try to explain that these kinds of comments should be avoided, especially when travelling to other countries, but what can you do when racism is so ingrained? we can try to import P.C attitudes, but in the end, general culture wins against a few hours teaching time.

A few years ago I was watching a (supposedly hip and open minded) Italian music TV show where this guy was interviewing Skin, the then lead singer of Skunk Anansie.The Italian interviewer's question made me cringe, it was something like:

"You're black (read African) and so how do you solve your cultural differences with the rest of the band?"

You could see from his face that Skin's answer "Actually, we're all from London, mate!" left him rather puzzled (!)

[scot47]

kattie says "I teach in Northern Italy, which is not yet multiracial."

So you have decided that Northern Italy will be multiracial ?