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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Given that the second comment of mine which you quoted was, if I am not mistaken, posted some months ago, one wonders why you used the word 'then', if not as an (awkward) attempt to misrepresent my views?
BTW you have frequently bored us by telling us how much you were bored in KSA. Given that you now seem to have nothing better to do than go around hunting for old quotes from internet posters, I'd say you're also pretty d**m bored wherever you may be now. |
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The_Prodiigy
Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| To highlight your risible, constant lack of consistency and the absurdity of your arguments, Cleopatra. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: |
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I frequently find myself criticising my intermediate level English students for producing 'sentences' which do not contain a main verb. However, seeing as such a task is beyond the capabilities of 'teachers', maybe I should be less harsh in the future.
Then again, there are teachers and there are 'teachers'. |
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ootii
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: Re: men now can teach women? |
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| amity wrote: |
Poor fellas....
I just got a rejection email that included the following paragraph:
"Also, this year we decided not to replace departing females teachers. Women can only teach women whereas males can now teach women and men. I need sufficent teachers to cover all classes and having women leaves me short, especially in the second semester when we have only a few women's classes and many men's classes."
This from the King Fahd Military Medical Center in Dhahran. What do you all think? Will a male-only policy become even more widespread in the future? |
Women are being recruited and hired for positions in the womens' faculties of public universities. Sometimes, men teach women due to the lack of qualified women teachers. A friend of mine was "teaching" a women's class taught by a man over a closed circuit television system. She would take the attendance and then turn on the monitor. The students, she said, generally occupied themselves with their makeup and chatter, and also with watching out for the odd glimpse of a male student as the camera panned around. They would rate the guys.
I have taught women's classes on embassy property, which is technically beyond the reach of long arm of the the religious police. There were about forty women per class. Some veiled their faces, some covered their hair, some dressed as women almost everywhere dress. The sky did not fall because I stood among forty women, quite alone.
I would not like to teach over a closed circuit system, and Saudi colleagues who have dislike it. I can't imagine how this even qualifies as teaching. Women will teach male students when they cannot recruit enough men to teach them. |
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ootii
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| amity wrote: |
| Yes, I thought it was rather noble of him, too. But I can also read the handwriting on the wall ... probably no job for me in Saudi Arabia at all. |
King Saud University is recruiting women language instructors, assistant and associate professors, and professors in a number of colleges. The university has created 100 new EFL positions and they prefer native speakers, for whom they will usually waive the mandatory MA requirement.
Check the job boards as TESOL.org for details and instructions on how to apply. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| A friend of mine was "teaching" a women's class taught by a man over a closed circuit television system. |
Was your friend an ESL teacher? I suppose the closed-circuit system could (just about) work in the context of a lecture, where there is little or no interaction between students and teacher. However, I just don't see how you could possibly 'teach' a language class in such a manner.
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| The sky did not fall because I stood among forty women, quite alone. |
No, but presumably this was a private class, where the students came from families who would have no objection to their being taught by a man - a foreign man, at any rate. Given social sensibilities among the conservative majority in KSA, such a system might be considered unacceptable in public institutions other than hospitals. Of course, attitudes are changing, and in any case as you say, economic or recruitment realities may soon mean that complete segregation is no longer seen as essential. Or maybe not. Who knows? |
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ootii
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A friend of mine was "teaching" a women's class taught by a man over a closed circuit television system. |
Was your friend an ESL teacher? I suppose the closed-circuit system could (just about) work in the context of a lecture, where there is little or no interaction between students and teacher. However, I just don't see how you could possibly 'teach' a language class in such a manner. |
Yes. She was co-ordinating the entire EFL program at that university. I'm not sure what the class was that she was babysitting for. It may have been some other subject.
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| The sky did not fall because I stood among forty women, quite alone. |
No, but presumably this was a private class, where the students came from families who would have no objection to their being taught by a man - a foreign man, at any rate. |
It was a public univeristy, but a foreign one, and none of the students were Saudi.
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| Given social sensibilities among the conservative majority in KSA, such a system might be considered unacceptable in public institutions other than hospitals. Of course, attitudes are changing, and in any case as you say, economic or recruitment realities may soon mean that complete segregation is no longer seen as essential. Or maybe not. Who knows? |
It's difficult to say just how ordinary people would react to it. I think that quite a lot of people make assumptions about this, which may not be that well warranted. I expect that people who would have really strong objections to male teachers at a women's university are the kind of people who would keep their daughters entirely out of higher education anyway. Men teach at women's colleges in the UAE and, culturally at least, the UAE is not remarkably different from Saudi Arabia. The only difference I can see is that the political culture there does not empower the fanatical, and tiny, religious minority in the same way that it does here.
Most objections to men teaching women would probably be of the "thin edge of the wedge" variety, followed up by the "evil secularist hypocrite" and "simian westernization" bogeys. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| the fanatical, and tiny, religious minorit |
While the word 'fanatical' is wide open to interpretation, I'm not sure that the 'minority' whereof you speak is all that 'tiny'. And while, as you say, it's impossible to gauge public opinion on this, and most other issues, I would think that, at least in Riyadh and the Najd region, an unwillingness to have your daughter educated by male teachers would actually be quite mainstream. I don't neccessarily believe that such people would not want their daughters going into higher education at all, but they would want them educated in what they consider to be a correct - ie, totally segregated - environment. |
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ootii
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
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| the fanatical, and tiny, religious minorit |
While the word 'fanatical' is wide open to interpretation, I'm not sure that the 'minority' whereof you speak is all that 'tiny'. And while, as you say, it's impossible to gauge public opinion on this, and most other issues, I would think that, at least in Riyadh and the Najd region, an unwillingness to have your daughter educated by male teachers would actually be quite mainstream. I don't neccessarily believe that such people would not want their daughters going into higher education at all, but they would want them educated in what they consider to be a correct - ie, totally segregated - environment. |
You're right. Thanks. "Fanatical and tiny" are not very useful here.
I am a Muslim. I have freinds who are involved with religious police and have been inside that society - before the bombings and attendant strife. I live with Saudis and know them well. Still, I doubt that most would raise serious objections to their adult daughters being taught by men in an all women's college. It is speculation against speculation. No one knows until they ask. |
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Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ootii wrote: |
| I have freinds who are involved with religious police and have been inside that society |
No such thing as religious police ootii!
Actually, I asked my shebab the other day and they said (in broken English) that they ain't cops. I still say that they are policing, even if they aren't the official police. I can't think of another verb to describe what they do. What do your friends think about this? |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| And here was me thinking we'd been through that whole 'police' thing already... |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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One of the perks at JIC for those well-in with the bosses was to give classes at the Girls College. The teacher would give the classes through a close circuit TV, or over the intercom from behind a screen (I don't know which), and would never see any of his charges.
One one occasion the daughter of a member of faculty, commented to the male teacher after hours, "You'll really don't need to be quite so enthusiastic." "What do you mean?" the surprised teacher said. "Well," said the girl, "I came into your class half way through and it was really impressive the conviction and pace of your teaching. The only problem was that there was nobody there." |
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