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Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
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 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleo, I just repeat what I said above: referring to Saudi law here (and re muttawas) is diversionary. The real question is why you have such great confidence in Saudi law and feel the need to refer to it when the regime is criticised? |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| referring to Saudi law here (and re muttawas) is diversionary |
Regarding this issue, it was Q of S who brought up the issue of legality, not me. Regarding 'mutuwwas' you did not appear to consider it to 'diversionary' when you pursued the argument at some length, and when you brought it up again days later on an unrelated thread. Could it just be that you don't like being proven wrong ?
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| why you have such great confidence in Saudi law |
When did I ever express such 'confidence'? Exact quotes, please.
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| feel the need to refer to it when the regime is criticised? |
I've just reread this thread in its entirety. I did not see a single reference - critical or otherwise - to the Saudi regime until your own (apart from a discussion on the alleged connections between the Saudi, Qatari and Bahraini governments). The posts had been about lifestyle and restrictions here. So could you tell me quite what you are talking about? |
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Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Cleo, yes Queenie did use the word "law" but it was you that made it into an issue, only later admitting it was irrelevant.
Our disagreement over the muttawas was to do with terminology, not the law. I've never pretended to know about Saudi law. Trust me Cleo, I don't feel "sore" if I'm proven wrong. I'm more interested in the issue than point scoring.
I've been consistent all along: the law, whatever that is in KSA, is a red-herring when we're talking about these issues. What the Saudi Statute Books say is largely irrelevant.
By "confidence" in the law I mean that you make definitive statements. Statements based on such an ambiguous area as Saudi Law. And you make these definitive statements when posters are critical of the regime (eg, muttawa brutality and the obligatory wearing of the abaya.) I'm not saying you're a bad person or anything, I just think your loyalty to the regime is strange. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Cleo, yes Queenie did use the word "law" but it was you that made it into an issue, only later admitting it was irrelevant. |
You could argue that it is you making it into an 'issue' - I simply correctted the inaccuracy in Q of S's post. And I never said it was 'irrelevant', simply that in practice, the strict legality of abaya wearing is not of huge concern to most women.
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| Our disagreement over the muttawas was to do with terminology, not the law. |
No it wasn't. You were insisting that mutaween had legal rights of detention; I pointed out that they did not.
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| I've been consistent all along: the law, whatever that is in KSA, is a red-herring when we're talking about these issues. |
I have never disagreed with that, and would have said so had you actually mentioned this on the other thread. You did not, however, mention this, and just continued to claim that the mutaween had the same rights as policemen, which they do not.
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By "confidence" in the law I mean that you make definitive statements. |
Yes - and I stand by them. Saudi law does not require women to wear abayas, nor does it give the mutaween powers of detention. You fully admit that I also said that this does not neccessarily matter in real life - aren't you contridicting yourself by now claiming that I have 'confidence' in said laws? Which is which? Particularly since, despite my request, you have not been able to produce a single quote to back up your claim.
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| posters are critical of the regime (eg, muttawa brutality and the obligatory wearing of the abaya.) |
You see, the problem with your argument here is that nobody was criticising the regime on this thread, simply pointing out the restrictions on life in KSA. I know you don't like having to provide evidence to back up your claims, but can I ask you to point out the quotes from this thread which contradict me in this? Or is it simply that those who don't share your utter disdain for the country which pays your wages, is somehow a 'regime apologist'? Is that what you mean? I ask because your manifest inability to back up your claims indicates that it is.
As for the previous thread, my words were in response to Prodigy's claims that the mutaween arrested someone on his compound (or was it an apartment?) I simply pointed out that they could not have done. I never once claimed that said mutaween cannot be abusive or brutal. While you're looking for quotes to back up your false claims about me, let me save time for you by pointing out my words here:
"Do they still abuse what powers they do have? Yes - mainly with Saudis,"
"Does it matter if they need a policeman with them in order to detain someone? In practical terms, often not, for the purposes of the above discussion, yes."
"Of course, I have never denied that they accost and even abduct (as opposed to 'arrest') people who dress or behave in a way not to their liking. And yes, of course, they are officially sanctioned in their 'work'. They are not, however, policemen, religious or otherwise."
Please provide quotes laying bare all my 'regime apologia'. They do exist, don't they? I mean, you're not just inventing stuff?
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| I'm not saying you're a bad person or anything, |
Oh well, that's good! I was going to go to bed crying tonight because an anonymous Dave's ESL poster doesn't like me.
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| I just think your loyalty to the regime is strange. |
What I find strange is that, as is clear to anyone following this thread, the only person talking about 'regimes' is you. |
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Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| You win Cleo. I give up. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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It is hard to say what Cleo has won apart from a prize for wrong-headedness. Everybody else seems to be disagreeing with her, or at best considering her objections to be totally irrelevant.
Even the Arab News uses language that doesn't support her:
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=94140&d=25&m=3&y=2007
The commission is considered to be one of the largest law-enforcement bodies in Saudi Arabia today. It currently has a work force of 10,000 members with 486 centers in all of the Kingdom�s 13 regions.
The commission chose to ignore some of the questions submitted by Arab News. Among the ones that were ignored were [...] Another question related to the presence of a lawyer when a person is arrested by the commission and the procedures that follow the arrest.
Q: Many people complain that they suffer injustice from commission members when they are accused of something and when they are arrested.
The commission has assigned centers in every city and town to be on the lookout for these men. As for their fate, they are arrested and then transferred to concerned authorities.
Note that nowhere in this interview does the Head of the Commission deny his members have the right to arrest. |
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SCHUBERT
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| yeah, poor old Cleo. Every payday, on the button, she appears to go off the rails. Ranting and raving at all and sundry. You could set your watch by her |
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bje
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| yeah, poor old Cleo. Every payday, on the button, she appears to go off the rails. Ranting and raving at all and sundry. You could set your watch by her |
She and Queen of Sheba argue well and I find their posts generally interesting and thought provoking. By contrast, the above quote exemplifies your own offerings- sporadic interjections to simply take a dig at various posters. |
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SCHUBERT
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| what i find 'thought-provoking' is how an Australian 'chap' like yourself is sooo defensive of the Ladies on this forum 100% of the time, no matter the content. And your own 'sporadic interjections' are solely on this account. hmmm .. i wonder .. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Everybody else seems to be disagreeing with her, or at best considering her objections to be totally irrelevant.
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Everybody else meaning..... Van Norden and you? As to whether or not you consider my objections irrelevant, I personally find that irrelevant. But it all begs the question: if you consider the argument so irrelevant, why on earth are you pursuing it?
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| Note that nowhere in this interview does the Head of the Commission deny his members have the right to arrest. |
Was he asked that question? Odd that you ask people to deny things that are never stated. Nowhere in the interview does it specifically state that the mutaween are the ones doing the arresting. Note that in the first paragraph, which lists the "Commision's" powers, no reference is made to the power of arrest. So your cut and paste proves. But then, seeing as you consider the whole subject irrelelevant, why do you care? |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: |
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I can't say that I get hot under the collar about the Commission for the Elimination of Vice.
But can you imagine what this place would be like without them ? |
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bje
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| what i find 'thought-provoking' is how an Australian 'chap' like yourself is sooo defensive of the Ladies on this forum 100% of the time, no matter the content. And your own 'sporadic interjections' are solely on this account. hmmm .. i wonder .. |
I wonder too...my theory (some might find it a little wacky) is that you're in reality one of those hatchet-faced man-hating Aussie nurses Cleo so justifiably deplores. You're out to portray all men as hopeless sexist fools, who jump on women's opinions purely because of their gender... |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| SCHUBERT wrote: |
| what i find 'thought-provoking' is how an Australian 'chap' like yourself is sooo defensive of the Ladies on this forum 100% of the time, no matter the content. And your own 'sporadic interjections' are solely on this account. hmmm .. i wonder .. |
Perhaps because he is an intelligent man?? Some do exist despite the evidence to the contrary repeatedly shown on this board.
VS |
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bje
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps because he is an intelligent man?? Some do exist despite the evidence to the contrary repeatedly shown on this board.
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THANK YOU! I and some other guys hate nothing more than dudes who think they're speaking for the entire male populace. |
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SCHUBERT
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| 'Queen of Sheba this' , 'Cleo that' .. Relax bje, we all know you're a little Queen-fixated. Its ok, your secret is safe with us .. shhhhhhh |
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