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southofreality
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 579
Location: Tokyo
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Precise
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 140
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 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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Sad, yes, but let us put the past behind us and focus on the present and future. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| southofreality wrote: |
History a little inconvenient for you?...
Just erase it.
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Can you name a country where that doesn't happen? 
The situation within Japan is, IMO, at least better than simply having the governments write the textbooks themselves, ala South Korea and China. YMMV. |
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Precise
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| southofreality wrote: |
History a little inconvenient for you?...
Just erase it.
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Can you name a country where that doesn't happen?
The situation within Japan is, IMO, at least better than simply having the governments write the textbooks themselves, ala South Korea and China. YMMV. |
Why do you say that about South Korea and can you elaborate on it? |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| The situation within Japan is, IMO, at least better than simply having the governments write the textbooks themselves, ala South Korea and China. YMMV. |
Japan should not use its Asian neighbours as a moral yardstick by which its integrity is measured. Japan should simply address these issues because its the morally right thing to do. I get real tired of the red herring argument that says, Korea, China et all are worse, therefore Japan's method of burrying its past is ok.
Outside of Asia, lots of countries have come to terms with their darker pasts and re-written school history texts accordingly. Doesn't mean they've solved existing social ills, but they've at least laid out the history as it should be laid out and are teaching it in schools. |
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southofreality
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 579
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| southofreality wrote: |
History a little inconvenient for you?...
Just erase it.
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Can you name a country where that doesn't happen?
The situation within Japan is, IMO, at least better than simply having the governments write the textbooks themselves, ala South Korea and China. YMMV. |
Wasn't Japan bashing here. Just pointed out something despicable being done here. Yes, it's done all over the world. I'm sad to say it has happened too frequently in my home country. Regardless of location, this kind of thing should be pointed out everywhere in the world and abhorred.
If a goverment has textbooks edited and reedited until that government is pleased with the results, that's not a whole lot different from the government writing the textbooks itself, IMO. |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:09 am Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| southofreality wrote: |
| Regardless of location, this kind of thing should be pointed out everywhere in the world and abhorred. |
Precisely.
I'm an equal opportunity critic. Bad public policy, or injustice deserves the spotlight, wherever it takes place. For some reason, there are ex-pats here, for one reason or another, who feel a need to jump to Japan's defence everytime something uncomfortable gets raised. |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:05 am Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| southofreality wrote: |
| If a goverment has textbooks edited and reedited until that government is pleased with the results, that's not a whole lot different from the government writing the textbooks itself, IMO. |
I think there is a difference between the government writing textbooks and allowing for alternative viewpoints in the free market as in Japan verses the government writing textbooks and not allowing any alternative viewpoints as in China.
| User N. Ame wrote: |
| I'm an equal opportunity critic. Bad public policy, or injustice deserves the spotlight, wherever it takes place. For some reason, there are ex-pats here, for one reason or another, who feel a need to jump to Japan's defence everytime something uncomfortable gets raised. |
I'm not jumping to Japan's defense. But I think there is a time and place for countries to teach school children about dark aspects of their own history. If left up to the Chinese, Japanese history would be taught as "Reasons to Hate Japan 101." |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| shuize wrote: |
| I'm not jumping to Japan's defense. But I think there is a time and place for countries to teach school children about dark aspects of their own history. If left up to the Chinese, Japanese history would be taught as "Reasons to Hate Japan 101." |
Shuize, you've made it abundently clear in past posts that you've got a serious hate-on for China, and most your complaints are no-brainers. China is a totalitarian regime. But we aren't talking about China here. We are taking about an education policy in Japan regarding school texts.
You say there's a time & place for countries to teach about its darker aspects, ie, its true history. What time, and what place, pray tell? When should a school child be eligible to receive a true reading of history, rather than a government-approved white-washed version?
German school kids learn about all apsects of the Nazi holocaust. Americans, I suspect, learn the truth about slavery and the civil rights movement. In Canada, we learn about our genocidal policies toward first nations, the legacy of residential schools, among other things. Other nations do very much the same. And all these nations are better democracies for it. So, for Japan's school children, when is the best time to tell the full truth? The best place?
This has absolutely nothing to do with appeasing China and/or Korea. It's about Japan simply doing the right thing, which is teaching its kids a true and accurate account of its history, and therefore becoming a better democracy. And by the way, its not only histories regarding atrocities committed against China & Korea. There are a range of issues Japan white-washes in its textbooks: the Ainu question; the annexation of the kingdom of Ryukyu (Okinawa), the Burakumin Question, and so on. When is a good time and place to properly teach these issues? Yes yes, I know these things are mentioned in high school texts, but are they fairly dealt with and given thorough discussion, or are they treated as historical "incidents" that have long since been resolved and put to rest? |
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MrCAPiTUL
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 232
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| This is something that Japan is notorious for - not accepting its wrong doings. Matter of fact, a couple of years ago (early 2005) there was tension between the Chinese government and the Japanese government, as Japan wouldn't acknowledge its wrong doings at Nan jing and other territories during WWII. After the atom bombs were used, Japan had a 'woe is me' attitude and failed to acknowledge the wrong doings it had committed that actually led to the bombs being used. It wasn't by choice that Japan got rid of its offensive stance - it was by post war decree. Keep your eyes peeled, though, as that is slowly being widdled away by current policy. I know Shinzo is trying to make the military more capable. The US is thinly spread around the globe and Japan has a legitimate Korean threat, a growing China, and a shaky Russia to the North. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: |
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This is business as usual. Japan often hides behind the victim complex, and yes, it is doing better than China and possibly S. Korea, but so what? It still is pretty abysmal. Though I am still not sure who is worse, PM Abe or President Bush   .
And yes, I know some of those foreigners, quite a few of them hang out at http://kawama.tzo.com:1023/kris/, though the main proponent is Japanese (like that makes me feel a lot better  ?!).
Anyway, that's a reason some people end up leaving, they tire of the governmental hypocrisy. That, and often foreigner rights in Japan seem to take a back seat to most other issues. But hey, some people think that if you can pull girls and draw good coin, it's enough (and I used to think I was shallow  ). |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
I'm an equal opportunity critic. Bad public policy, or injustice deserves the spotlight, wherever it takes place. For some reason, there are ex-pats here, for one reason or another, who feel a need to jump to Japan's defence everytime something uncomfortable gets raised. |
The interesting thing is that most of the people doing the "raising of this important point" often don't know anything about their own country's bits of suppressed history. They often even deny it and it's often done in a pretty accusatory way. (no, I'm not saying anyone has done that is this thread so far, but that's the way I usually see it go). Why accuse Japan? Why not get your own house in order first? If it's just pointing it out then fine. And so what? Join the (very long) queue on that score. Sure, Japan has done and does some things that deserve condemnation. Pointing out that they are at least better than South Korea in X or Y area does not mitigate what Japan does, but it does suggest that accusations and efforts to demand apologies blahblahmoralgrandstandingetcblah could perhaps be better directed elsewhere first. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
German school kids learn about all apsects of the Nazi holocaust. Americans, I suspect, learn the truth about slavery and the civil rights movement. In Canada, we learn about our genocidal policies toward first nations, the legacy of residential schools, among other things. Other nations do very much the same. And all these nations are better democracies for it. So, for Japan's school children, when is the best time to tell the full truth? The best place?
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Truth, in lots of these questions, does not equate to mere facts. Mere facts do not intimate the natuire of the events in a ot of ways, and it's that moral point that gets most people's panties in a twist. In that case you then have to choose an "approved" standpoint to work from. The Germans happen to take one that pleases most other countries. Chinese textbooks take the moral standpoint approved by the party and present history according to that. Few people outside China approve of how that turns out.
What most people appear to want to do is declare what standpoint Japan should take; dictate both the how and why of Japanese historical presentation. They don't want a presentation of the facts. They want a presentation of the facts along with a certain moral judgement thereof.
It's sort of ironic that the people complaining loudest about the various & varying Japanese presentations of their history to themselves, and the system MEXT has in place to foster those differing viewpoints, are the same ones demanding that Japan should present one particular viewpoint over all others. It's pretty sad that the only other group that grees with the 'only one viewpoint' stance are the ultra-nationalists. I imagine the irony of that is lost on both groups.  |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| Quote: |
Shuize, you've made it abundently clear in past posts that you've got a serious hate-on for China, and most your complaints are no-brainers. China is a totalitarian regime. But we aren't talking about China here. We are taking about an education policy in Japan regarding school texts.
You say there's a time & place for countries to teach about its darker aspects, ie, its true history. What time, and what place, pray tell? When should a school child be eligible to receive a true reading of history, rather than a government-approved white-washed version?
German school kids learn about all apsects of the Nazi holocaust. Americans, I suspect, learn the truth about slavery and the civil rights movement. In Canada, we learn about our genocidal policies toward first nations, the legacy of residential schools, among other things. Other nations do very much the same. And all these nations are better democracies for it. So, for Japan's school children, when is the best time to tell the full truth? The best place?
This has absolutely nothing to do with appeasing China and/or Korea. It's about Japan simply doing the right thing, which is teaching its kids a true and accurate account of its history, and therefore becoming a better democracy. And by the way, its not only histories regarding atrocities committed against China & Korea. There are a range of issues Japan white-washes in its textbooks: the Ainu question; the annexation of the kingdom of Ryukyu (Okinawa), the Burakumin Question, and so on. When is a good time and place to properly teach these issues? Yes yes, I know these things are mentioned in high school texts, but are they fairly dealt with and given thorough discussion, or are they treated as historical "incidents" that have long since been resolved and put to rest? |
I'm not sure how you gleaned any hate for China from my post. As you say, the fact that the Chinese government limits dissent is an obvious "no brainer." That's not hate, it's just fact. My first statement was in response to southofreality's comment about government requiring editing of textbooks. My point was that such editing and reediting is less serious when there is freedom of the press to point out how biased the government's version is.
My comment about a time and place meant that I would not, for example, teach elementary school children about sex slaves or the Rape of Nanking. Personally, I think Japan plays the victim card too often. I also believe they could do a better job discussing their role in the war. However, I'm also sure, if I were a Japanese born after the war and never had anything to do with any of the terrible events you mentioned above, I'd grow weary of other nations trying to dictate how Japan must teach its children. Especially regarding matters that are included in the textbooks but apparently do not satisfy the vague (and likely impossible) standard of being discussed "enough."
As G Cthulhu notes above, this is about other countries seeking to control the historical message from outside. In my view, that is for the Japanese themselves. And I also find it ironic that countries where there is no free press to counter the government's message are some of the loudest in condemning Japan. |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:12 am Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| User N. Ame wrote: |
I'm an equal opportunity critic. Bad public policy, or injustice deserves the spotlight, wherever it takes place. For some reason, there are ex-pats here, for one reason or another, who feel a need to jump to Japan's defence everytime something uncomfortable gets raised. |
Why accuse Japan? |
Because social and political criticism is not confined to borders and nationalities. Let me reverse the question: what bothers you so much about criticisms directed at Japan?
| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| Sure, Japan has done and does some things that deserve condemnation. |
I think you just answered your own question (Why accuse Japan?). Because Japan is deserving of such condemnation and criticism. |
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