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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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 Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:03 am Post subject: Surveillance Cameras Outside of Teachers' Apartments |
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Today the heretofore rather innocuous university where I work in GZ created a rather huge firestorm, so to speak.
The Foreign Affairs Officer told all ten of the foreign teachers that surveillance cameras would be placed outside the doors of each of the foreign teacher's apartments, if they liked it or not. The teachers here, who heretofore have never managed to agree on anything, were outraged. The local Consulate General was informed of this and took a very, very, very dim of it also, to be polite.
There have been no egregious reasons as to why surveillance cameras should be installed here and there has been no pressing reason as to why they should be installed at this particular time. There have been no drug-related incidents (no drugs at all), no political activism (except that most teachers are dyed-in-the-wool redneck Republicans), no overt religious activity (except that some teachers go to church on Sunday, albeit at an officially-sanctioned church), etc., etc.
So I would like to open the discussion of this to all of the members of this Board. Has this happened to any of you before? How have you reacted? What have you done to secure the removal of these cameras? All constructive comments and ideas are most welcome and I will share them with all of the other FTs.
The Consulate has also been helpful and they will apply pressure, through the Embassy and the Foreign Ministry, but they can only intervene ONCE the cameras have been actually installed.
I should also add, however, that the leaders of the school are stuck in a rather 1950's Joseph Stalin deep red political mindset which has been obvious on other occasions.
Comments please. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:22 am Post subject: |
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Are the cameras pointing at the actual entrance door to each apartment/room, or to the building entrance itself?
I once lived in an apartment building that was made up of taofang apartments (self contained one room apartments). The landlord has a camera mounted in the corridor on the floor which clearly showed who was going in and out of each room. I felt wary of it at first but soon forgot about it. That was until one night the drunken ex-boyfriend of the girl in the next room tried kicking in her door thinking she was in when she wasn't. I phoned the landlord, he looked at the screen, and sent the police around to resolve the problem.
Personally I don't have a problem with security cameras, but I do understamd your concerns. |
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abusalam4
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 143
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: The electronic spies...how "nice" |
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I have been two China twice (1990 and 2003) and never experienced such a thing before. Even these days, I never heard of such a thing happening other parts of China.
Looks like that it is your employer`s individual decision- whatever their "reason" may be. Go against it and tell them that this may be a serious breach of the contract as they are violating your privacy which they have to respect (in the settings of Chinese culture, privacy is not well known and valued but this may also change).
They may tell you it is for your own "safety" - do not believe that crap and do not let them get away with it. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Surveillance Cameras Outside of Teachers' Apartments |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| The Consulate has also been helpful and they will apply pressure, through the Embassy and the Foreign Ministry, but they can only intervene ONCE the cameras have been actually installed. |
why is your consulate involved in this matter? what kind of "pressure" do you think they can apply here? the consular officials of MOST countries know better than to get involved with this kind of stuff. the school is in china, which, as far as i know, doesn't come under US jurisdiction. by saying they can only intervene once the cameras are installed means your complaint has been listened to by consular officials and has been filed appropriately.
if you cant deal with it on your own level with your FAO then i would say you are out of luck.
Last edited by 7969 on Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:31 am; edited 2 times in total |
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abusalam4
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 143
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
Personally I don't have a problem with security cameras, . |
It may be quite a different thing if they have a camera at the entrance doors of the house where FTs live or if they were placed somewhere where they could watch what you are doing in your private rooms. In the latter case: still have no problem with security cameras? |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: Re: The electronic spies...how "nice" |
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| abusalam4 wrote: |
I have been two China twice (1990 and 2003) and never experienced such a thing before. Even these days, I never heard of such a thing happening other parts of China.
Looks like that it is your employer`s individual decision- whatever their "reason" may be. Go against it and tell them that this may be a serious breach of the contract as they are violating your privacy which they have to respect (in the settings of Chinese culture, privacy is not well known and valued but this may also change).
They may tell you it is for your own "safety" - do not believe that crap and do not let them get away with it. |
Clark and Absulama, thank you for your postings.
They are indeed to be surveillance cameras, posted outside the door of each FT's apartment and hooked up to the local security guard's monitoring station.
Indeed, they are ultra vires in terms of the contract but they are also an elementary violation of even the most basic of human rights. Clark, the teachers have done nothing to warrant surveillance and such unwarranted surveillance is simply not acceptable. It is being done by the university, upon a decision of some university p*rty hack, apparently, and yes, it is being done in the name of "security", although the other 450 Chinese teachers are not being subject to such security. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:36 am Post subject: Re: Surveillance Cameras Outside of Teachers' Apartments |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| 7969 wrote: |
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| The Consulate has also been helpful and they will apply pressure, through the Embassy and the Foreign Ministry, but they can only intervene ONCE the cameras have been actually installed. |
assuming this post is really serious....
why is your consulate involved in this matter? what kind of "pressure" do you think they can apply here? the consular officials of MOST countries know better than to get involved with this kind of stuff. the school is in china, which, as far as i know, doesn't come under US jurisdiction. by saying they can only intervene once the cameras are installed means your complaint has been listened to by consular officials and has been filed appropriately. |
Thank you for your worthless and debasing posting.
Either contribute something meaningful here, if you are even remotely capable of doing it, or go back to posting your ad infinitum and meaningless postings about the problems with your air conditioner, etc., etc.
This is a serious issue and your drivel is not appreciated. |
can you answer the question sir? what kind of pressure can your consulate apply here? what makes you think they can or should do anything? you may not like those cameras, and i'm not saying they're necessary but your consulate, if its worthy of the name, should have laughed at you when you lodged your complaint.
my problem with your post isnt the post itself, its the fact you think your consulate is going to intervene here. thats ridiculous and is the height of arrogance. |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:41 am Post subject: Re: Surveillance Cameras Outside of Teachers' Apartments |
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| 7969 wrote: |
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| The Consulate has also been helpful and they will apply pressure, through the Embassy and the Foreign Ministry, but they can only intervene ONCE the cameras have been actually installed. |
why is your consulate involved in this matter? what kind of "pressure" do you think they can apply here? the consular officials of MOST countries know better than to get involved with this kind of stuff. the school is in china, which, as far as i know, doesn't come under US jurisdiction. by saying they can only intervene once the cameras are installed means your complaint has been listened to by consular officials and has been filed appropriately.
if you cant deal with it on your own level with your FAO then i would say you are out of luck. |
Actually, 7969 you are completely wrong.
There have been at least four cases here where the Consulate has intervened at this school, directly or indirectly and changed the course of events.
You are a Canadian, so if you want to pontificate about a Consulate, go pontificate about yours. You know nothing of ours and what you claim to know is completely wrong.
1. They assisted in one case when a FT suffered injury here in a construction-related accident;
2. They assisted in another case here when a teacher was terminated solely upon allegations, and while they did not reverse the outcome, they did cause due procedure to be respected.
3. They intervened in another case where a FT had to leave early and he was really maltreated by the university during his departure process. In that particular case, the FT left with a settlement in HIS favor, as opposed to be fined for leaving early.
4. The local Consulate is under pressure to look after the local Yanks as in 2005 an American FT was murdered here in GZ by an employee of his school. He had complained to the Consulate about receiving threats and he was ignored. The case made the U.S. newspapers, the 6:00 p.m. news reports and the local Consulate was really admonished.
So frankly, spare me of your rudeness in the future. I have endured your trash on this board long enough. Either contribute something, if you are capable of thinking, or go disturb another thread.
Last edited by HunanForeignGuy on Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:44 am Post subject: Re: Surveillance Cameras Outside of Teachers' Apartments |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
Either contribute something meaningful here, if you are even remotely capable of doing it, or go back to posting your ad infinitum and meaningless postings about the problems with your air conditioner, etc., etc.
This is a serious issue and your drivel is not appreciated. |
my consulate couldnt do anything when i reported i had no air conditioner when the temperature hit 37C last year. but my FAO finally bought one for me when i invited her over for tea one afternoon as the sun blazed into my flat. |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: Re: Surveillance Cameras Outside of Teachers' Apartments |
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| 7969 wrote: |
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| 7969 wrote: |
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| The Consulate has also been helpful and they will apply pressure, through the Embassy and the Foreign Ministry, but they can only intervene ONCE the cameras have been actually installed. |
assuming this post is really serious....
why is your consulate involved in this matter? what kind of "pressure" do you think they can apply here? the consular officials of MOST countries know better than to get involved with this kind of stuff. the school is in china, which, as far as i know, doesn't come under US jurisdiction. by saying they can only intervene once the cameras are installed means your complaint has been listened to by consular officials and has been filed appropriately. |
Thank you for your worthless and debasing posting.
Either contribute something meaningful here, if you are even remotely capable of doing it, or go back to posting your ad infinitum and meaningless postings about the problems with your air conditioner, etc., etc.
This is a serious issue and your drivel is not appreciated. |
can you answer the question sir? what kind of pressure can your consulate apply here? what makes you think they can or should do anything? you may not like those cameras, and i'm not saying they're necessary but your consulate, if its worthy of the name, should have laughed at you when you lodged your complaint.
my problem with your post isnt the post itself, its the fact you think your consulate is going to intervene here. thats ridiculous and is the height of arrogance. |
And my problem is WITH your posts. With all of them. Your attack dog manner is way out of line but perhaps that is how you operate.
As I said before, either contribute here or go rant somewhere else. And no the Consulate did not laugh and no there is no arrogance. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:01 am Post subject: Re: Surveillance Cameras Outside of Teachers' Apartments |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
Actually, 7969 you are completely wrong.
There have been at least four cases here where the Consulate has intervened at this school, directly or indirectly and changed the course of events.
You are a Canadian, so if you want to pontificate about a Consulate, go pontificate about yours. You know nothing of ours and what you claim to know is completely wrong.
1. They assisted in one case when a FT suffered injury here in a construction-related accident;
2. They assisted in another case here when a teacher was terminated solely upon allegations, and while they did not reverse the outcome, they did cause due procedure to be respected.
3. They intervened in another case where a FT had to leave early and he was really maltreated by the university during his departure process. In that particular case, the FT left with a settlement in HIS favor, as opposed to be fined for leaving early.
4. The local Consulate is under pressure to look after the local Yanks as in 2005 an American FT was murdered here in GZ by an employee of his school. He had complained to the Consulate about receiving threats and he was ignored. The case made the U.S. newspapers, the 6:00 p.m. news reports and the local Consulate was really admonished.
So frankly, spare me of your rudeness in the future. I have endured your trash on this board long enough. Either contribute something, if you are capable of thinking, or go disturb another thread. |
case #1 seems probably. most consulates will provide SOME assistance in cases of injury to a citizen. as for case #4, consular officials usually issue warnings but i'm sure they arent spending a whole lot of time "looking after you." as for #2 and #3...... i doubt it. although next time i'm in GZ i'll call your consulate up just to see what they can and cant do for american esl teachers who feel mistreated by their schools. in fact i'll try and do that later today and post my findings for the benefit of all.
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| Indeed, they are ultra vires in terms of the contract but they are also an elementary violation of even the most basic of human rights. |
you do realize you're in china, sir?
as for talking trash..... well mr HFG, i will leave it to others to decide who talks the most here.
Last edited by 7969 on Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:04 am Post subject: Re: Surveillance Cameras Outside of Teachers' Apartments |
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| 7969 wrote: |
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
Actually, 7969 you are completely wrong.
There have been at least four cases here where the Consulate has intervened at this school, directly or indirectly and changed the course of events.
You are a Canadian, so if you want to pontificate about a Consulate, go pontificate about yours. You know nothing of ours and what you claim to know is completely wrong.
1. They assisted in one case when a FT suffered injury here in a construction-related accident;
2. They assisted in another case here when a teacher was terminated solely upon allegations, and while they did not reverse the outcome, they did cause due procedure to be respected.
3. They intervened in another case where a FT had to leave early and he was really maltreated by the university during his departure process. In that particular case, the FT left with a settlement in HIS favor, as opposed to be fined for leaving early.
4. The local Consulate is under pressure to look after the local Yanks as in 2005 an American FT was murdered here in GZ by an employee of his school. He had complained to the Consulate about receiving threats and he was ignored. The case made the U.S. newspapers, the 6:00 p.m. news reports and the local Consulate was really admonished.
So frankly, spare me of your rudeness in the future. I have endured your trash on this board long enough. Either contribute something, if you are capable of thinking, or go disturb another thread. |
case #1 seems probably. most consulates will provide SOME assistance in cases of injury to a citizen. as for case #4, consular officials usually issue warnings but i'm sure they arent spending a whole lot of time "looking after you." as for #2 and #3...... i doubt it. although next time i'm in GZ i'll call them up just to see what they can do for american esl teachers who feel mistreated by their schools.
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| Indeed, they are ultra vires in terms of the contract but they are also an elementary violation of even the most basic of human rights. |
you do realize you're in china, sir?
as for talking trash..... well mr HFG, i will leave it to others to decide who talks the most here. |
Please DO call them up. I will even help you by giving them your full name and stats (as to your nationality) when I see them on Monday. My pleasure to assist you but I think that they would probably refer you to YOUR Canadian consulate instead.
Now, what have you contributed to the original post? Anything? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:11 am Post subject: Re: The electronic spies...how "nice" |
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| abusalam4 wrote: |
| It may be quite a different thing if they have a camera at the entrance doors of the house where FTs live or if they were placed somewhere where they could watch what you are doing in your private rooms. In the latter case: still have no problem with security cameras? |
Oh come on! Having a camera installed inside your apartment and having one installed outside your apartment are hardly comparable. I don't think that your point requires any more of a reply from me than that.
Certainly, having the cameras installed outside the door of each apartment does sound like overkill no matter whether there is a reason or not as far as past foreign teacher behavior. I would support the use of cameras outside the building, at the main entrance, and perhaps even on the floor if others shared the building with you, but I can see no constructive reason to add security cameras outside each apartment door.
Is there something that we are missing here? Are the apartments all together in one building or are they seperated? What I mean by this is that if they are spread among apartments lived in by non-university residents then perhaps that would explain the focusing in on certain doorways! But if you guys are all in the same building and all university staff then I can't understand the schools reasoning here.
I actually agree with 7969. Too many foreign teachers think that their consulate can and will help them with employers. That is not the role of foreign consulates here. Consulates do not involve themselves in civil disputes. In the cases you mention HFG I assume that there was some breach of law that the consulate sought the school to rectify rather than a breach of contract. In the case of the camera placement I can't see what law is being broken assuming that the school owns the property or has permission from the property owner to install the cameras.
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
4. The local Consulate is under pressure to look after the local Yanks as in 2005 an American FT was murdered here in GZ by an employee of his school. He had complained to the Consulate about receiving threats and he was ignored. The case made the U.S. newspapers, the 6:00 p.m. news reports and the local Consulate was really admonished. |
Perhaps this is a different case than the one that I am thinking of, but in the case that I am thinking of there was nothing to suggest that someone from the school murdered the guy. Where did you get that information? The guy did a runner after he felt that the school was not fulfilling it's contract and he was found dead on the street. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| Please DO call them up. I will even help you by giving them your full name and stats (as to your nationality) when I see them on Monday. My pleasure to assist you but I think that they would probably refer you to YOUR Canadian consulate instead. |
i dont plan on identifying myself. i'll just ask for general info.
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| Now, what have you contributed to the original post? Anything? |
my contribution is a set of two legitimate questions in my first post. you (finally) answered them somewhere further down the thread (but only after launching an attack on me in another post). in my second post, (if you read it instead of flying off the handle), you'd see that i almost agreed with you on the necessity of those cameras. but again you took the low road a couple of posts later.....
would it be possible for you to post a photo or two of those cameras once they're installed and running? will give us a better idea of where you're coming from.
good day sir. |
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aijiang
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: |
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I would just wait to see if the authorities actually install the cameras. They could just be bluffing in an attempt to maintain control or intimidate certain behaviours.
As far as consulate involvement, I would completely leave them out of it. Foreign governments will not interfere under any circumstances in personal affairs.
If big brother is going to flex his muscles than either learn to deal with it or find another place to work. |
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