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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:31 am Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| User N. Ame wrote: |
German school kids learn about all apsects of the Nazi holocaust. Americans, I suspect, learn the truth about slavery and the civil rights movement. In Canada, we learn about our genocidal policies toward first nations, the legacy of residential schools, among other things. Other nations do very much the same. And all these nations are better democracies for it. So, for Japan's school children, when is the best time to tell the full truth? The best place?
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Truth, in lots of these questions, does not equate to mere facts. Mere facts do not intimate the natuire of the events in a ot of ways, and it's that moral point that gets most people's panties in a twist. In that case you then have to choose an "approved" standpoint to work from. The Germans happen to take one that pleases most other countries. Chinese textbooks take the moral standpoint approved by the party and present history according to that. Few people outside China approve of how that turns out.
What most people appear to want to do is declare what standpoint Japan should take; dictate both the how and why of Japanese historical presentation. They don't want a presentation of the facts. They want a presentation of the facts along with a certain moral judgement thereof. |
You're arguing a variety of historical relativism, and use this as a way to difuse criticism, saying there is no truth, only a collection of facts and subjective interpretation of those facts. That's a cynical position, and one I don't share. Facts are important, history is real, and there are truthful inferences to be made from those realities. I do see what you are getting at. There are interest groups and nations with axes to grind. Which is why some sources are more reputable than others. There are excellent historians within Japan academia who actively propose contrarian positions. There are NGOs, groups like UN Human Rights, Amnesty International, that have no national chauvanistic agenda. I think you also have to inform yourself. As I said before, I hold no punches in calling a spade a spade, where-ever I see it, especially in my own country.
I think the reason Japan gets the focus on this forum is for obvious reasons: it's a Japan forum. Most of the people here have some deeper connection to Japan than they do China, Korea, etc.... |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:43 am Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| shuize wrote: |
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Shuize, you've made it abundently clear in past posts that you've got a serious hate-on for China, and most your complaints are no-brainers. China is a totalitarian regime. But we aren't talking about China here. We are taking about an education policy in Japan regarding school texts.
You say there's a time & place for countries to teach about its darker aspects, ie, its true history. What time, and what place, pray tell? When should a school child be eligible to receive a true reading of history, rather than a government-approved white-washed version?
German school kids learn about all apsects of the Nazi holocaust. Americans, I suspect, learn the truth about slavery and the civil rights movement. In Canada, we learn about our genocidal policies toward first nations, the legacy of residential schools, among other things. Other nations do very much the same. And all these nations are better democracies for it. So, for Japan's school children, when is the best time to tell the full truth? The best place?
This has absolutely nothing to do with appeasing China and/or Korea. It's about Japan simply doing the right thing, which is teaching its kids a true and accurate account of its history, and therefore becoming a better democracy. And by the way, its not only histories regarding atrocities committed against China & Korea. There are a range of issues Japan white-washes in its textbooks: the Ainu question; the annexation of the kingdom of Ryukyu (Okinawa), the Burakumin Question, and so on. When is a good time and place to properly teach these issues? Yes yes, I know these things are mentioned in high school texts, but are they fairly dealt with and given thorough discussion, or are they treated as historical "incidents" that have long since been resolved and put to rest? |
I'm not sure how you gleaned any hate for China from my post. As you say, the fact that the Chinese government limits dissent is an obvious "no brainer." That's not hate, it's just fact. My first statement was in response to southofreality's comment about government requiring editing of textbooks. My point was that such editing and reediting is less serious when there is freedom of the press to point out how biased the government's version is.
My comment about a time and place meant that I would not, for example, teach elementary school children about sex slaves or the Rape of Nanking. Personally, I think Japan plays the victim card too often. I also believe they could do a better job discussing their role in the war. However, I'm also sure, if I were a Japanese born after the war and never had anything to do with any of the terrible events you mentioned above, I'd grow weary of other nations trying to dictate how Japan must teach its children. Especially regarding matters that are included in the textbooks but apparently do not satisfy the vague (and likely impossible) standard of being discussed "enough."
As G Cthulhu notes above, this is about other countries seeking to control the historical message from outside. In my view, that is for the Japanese themselves. And I also find it ironic that countries where there is no free press to counter the government's message are some of the loudest in condemning Japan. |
You offer up a well-reasoned and thoughtful reply, and believe it or not, I agree with many of your points. Although the notion of a free press seems to have limits in Japan. In my 4 years of watching NHK news most nights in Japan, and reading the various English dailies, I rarely saw the type of open, healthy debate that exists in forums like this. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: |
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What most people appear to want to do is declare what standpoint Japan should take; dictate both the how and why of Japanese historical presentation. They don't want a presentation of the facts. They want a presentation of the facts along with a certain moral judgement thereof.
It's sort of ironic that the people complaining loudest about the various & varying Japanese presentations of their history to themselves, and the system MEXT has in place to foster those differing viewpoints, are the same ones demanding that Japan should present one particular viewpoint over all others. It's pretty sad that the only other group that grees with the 'only one viewpoint' stance are the ultra-nationalists. I imagine the irony of that is lost on both groups. |
I back N of A's comments. I think you're missing the boat, and as stated earlier, you may be happier with the 'slant' given at Young Dude's Guide to Japan
Yes, there is a moral slant sometimes, but also there is a factual one, which some people in the Japanese government wish to ignore. They would have you believe that almost anything the Japanese soldiers did was for the good of that area they 'were invited to'!   I would think they would get that financial investment alone doesn't always buy you friends. Of course Bush doesn't get it either  . |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
I back N of A's comments. I think you're missing the boat, and as stated earlier, you may be happier with the 'slant' given at Young Dude's Guide to Japan
Yes, there is a moral slant sometimes, but also there is a factual one, which some people in the Japanese government wish to ignore. They would have you believe that almost anything the Japanese soldiers did was for the good of that area they 'were invited to'! |
You've missed the point entirely.  I'm specifically not conflating the facts with the moral standpoint. What I'm saying is that you have to differentiate the facts from the standpoint and then decide what and which standpoint you want to take viz those facts. Anyone that wants to stand up and say Japan is bad for not doing X when teaching history also has to exaplin why anyone should pay any attention to their position. I have yet to see anyone explain why they think the position taken by some publishers is bad. That's not moral relevatism: that's moral absolutism: justify the position and tell my why I should give a damn about your position over that of the ultra-right nationalists. (You don't get what I'm doing with this, do you?)
I don't see any real difference bewteen the "Japan must face up/admit it's past and blabblah" crowd and the "Japan did no wrong & is the victim here!" groups. They're both unthinking moral extremists IMO. Both groups annoy the hell out of me. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
| G Cthulhu wrote: |
Truth, in lots of these questions, does not equate to mere facts. Mere facts do not intimate the natuire of the events in a ot of ways, and it's that moral point that gets most people's panties in a twist. In that case you then have to choose an "approved" standpoint to work from. The Germans happen to take one that pleases most other countries. Chinese textbooks take the moral standpoint approved by the party and present history according to that. Few people outside China approve of how that turns out.
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You're arguing a variety of historical relativism, and use this as a way to difuse criticism, saying there is no truth, only a collection of facts and subjective interpretation of those facts.
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That sound you hear is the sound of my argument passing you by entirely.
I'm not saying there is no truth - I'm certainly no moral relevatist! I'm saying that "truth" is confined to facts and that facts do not make a (educationally useful) moral position in and off themselves. If you want to make a useful position then, yes, you also need a moral standpoint, and if you want that then you have to do better than, "Japan did bad things!" If you want to ascribe "truth" to moral statements then be prepared to be laughed at because your entire position falls over if someone simply doesn't adhere to the same moral code as you. Now, somehow, I doubt you want to enable and strentghen the position the ultra-nationalists work from, do you?
| Quote: |
That's a cynical position, and one I don't share. Facts are important, history is real, and there are truthful inferences to be made from those realities. I do see what you are getting at. There are interest groups and nations with axes to grind. Which is why some sources are more reputable than others. There are excellent historians within Japan academia who actively propose contrarian positions. There are NGOs, groups like UN Human Rights, Amnesty International, that have no national chauvanistic agenda. I think you also have to inform yourself. As I said before, I hold no punches in calling a spade a spade, where-ever I see it, especially in my own country.
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The problem is that you don't seem to understand what a spade is. You can "call it as [you] see it" all you want. But tell me why I should listen to you over an ultra-nationalist doing the exact same thing: standing there and declaring a position true, while dismissing anyone that questions either extreme with a reply of, "Relavatism!!"? What I'm trying to suggest is that you need a stronger argument, one with fewer holes. And for that you need to slow down and take smaller steps. Or at least explain the steps.
| Quote: |
I think the reason Japan gets the focus on this forum is for obvious reasons: it's a Japan forum. Most of the people here have some deeper connection to Japan than they do China, Korea, etc.... |
Trivially true. While you may not have, I've seen people actually argue that China and South Korea do a better job than Japan in teaching history. To me, that smacks of outright ignorance, regardless of where they say it. My apologies if it wasn't clear that that's what I was meaning earlier in the thread. |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:03 am Post subject: Re: Who controls the past, controls the future |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| I'm not saying there is no truth - I'm certainly no moral relevatist! I'm saying that "truth" is confined to facts and that facts do not make a (educationally useful) moral position in and off themselves. If you want to make a useful position then, yes, you also need a moral standpoint, and if you want that then you have to do better than, "Japan did bad things!" |
I think your talking sophistic circles around yourself. Let's go back to the first step: the issue as raised in the news article above. Let's keep it really simple. Do you think Japan's history is being fairly and thoroughly taught in public schools? Do you the govt's book policy is an honest one, with the aim of providing students a balanced view of their own history? If not to both questions, then we agree. End of argument. Yet, you still seem to take issue with those who want to discuss this issue in any depth or detail. I'm not sure why. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly. G Cthulhu's comments don't make a lot of sense. If you continue his arguement, then you can't discuss much of anything. Basically the ultranationalists always paint their nation in the best possible light and often disregard any evidence that paints a picture that contradicts theirs. We're not stating what the story is beyond what overwhelming evidece from a multitude of sources already points to as a conclusion; Yasukuni Shrine war criminals, comfort women, whitewashing of history through a cabinet supported group... the list goes on and on.
If you want to be a Japanophile, go ahead, but at least prepare a better arguement or take it to another forum where people buy into your 'story' . |
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southofreality
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 579
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless of who does it, when a long-standing historical account (previously believed to be worthy of inclusion in history textbooks) is suddenly ordered by a government to be modified or removed without any significant evidence to prove that it should be, that government's motives should be questioned deeply. That goes for any government, anywhere.
I've said enough. |
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Precise
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Can't we all just get along? |
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Precise
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Can't we all just get along? |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
| Exactly. G Cthulhu's comments don't make a lot of sense. If you continue his arguement, then you can't discuss much of anything. |
You're assuming I'm saying that you can't make any moral statements or take any stand. I'm not. I'm simply saying that you have to be up front about the moral standpoint you're taking. I'm sorry if the distinction was too fine or you don't see the point of that.
Doesn't it strike any of you as somewhat ironic that you're arguing a moral position but refusing to recognise a position that examines or asks you to justify those morals?!
| Quote: |
Basically the ultranationalists always paint their nation in the best possible light and often disregard any evidence that paints a picture that contradicts theirs. We're not stating what the story is beyond what overwhelming evidece from a multitude of sources already points to as a conclusion; Yasukuni Shrine war criminals, comfort women, whitewashing of history through a cabinet supported group... the list goes on and on.
If you want to be a Japanophile, go ahead, but at least prepare a better arguement or take it to another forum where people buy into your 'story' . |
That is really funny: right after complaining about the loonies at yasukuni you turn around and tell me to go elsewhere for asking you to explain your own position clearly? Yup, real open to alternative viewpoints and not at all blindly expecting acceptance of your own ideal you are.  |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Precise wrote: |
| Can't we all just get along? |
Apparently not. Apparently some of us have to accpt certain viewpoints without question. Oh, the humanity of it all! |
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User N. Ame
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 222
Location: Kanto
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| Precise wrote: |
| Can't we all just get along? |
Apparently not. Apparently some of us have to accpt certain viewpoints without question. Oh, the humanity of it all! |
It's a little silly, the way these discusions devolve, isn't it? And even here, G Cth, you are assuming that a difference of opinion means we necessarily can't be civil and get along. And you also draw the peculiar inference that you are being forced into an all vs. nothing corner.
This is one reason I've really come loathe extended discusions online vs. in person. In the absence of body language, verbal cues and just about everything else that makes us social beings, the anonymous online forum participant seems to have a lack of respect for fellow users and an ego that is both brazen and volatile. I'm not necessarily talking about you, G Cthu. You are one of the more tolerant souls around here. And your arguments are generally sound. You've helped me with questions in the past via the PM feature, which I remain thankful for. So nothing personal.
Excuse the digression, it's a general lament about online culture that's been brewing in me for a few years.
Ok, I'm done. |
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jademonkey
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Don't confuse official party line with reality. Most young Japanese that I know were at least taught about wartime atrocities, some in great detail.
Yes, they don't really think about it, but can you honestly say most Americans ponder the persistence of slavery until relatively recently, or Australians the genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigines, or the English for producing the Spice Girls? |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
| You are one of the more tolerant souls around here. |
No I'm not. |
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