Job Discussion Forums

[globalnomad2]

There's an interesting thread about "Getting out of EFL before it's too late." One poster said s/he'd really like to get a PhD and teach university classes. So would I, teaching writing to native speakers. In the US there are about 8 to 10 PhD programs in Creative Writing (out of English departments) that are subsidized through required assistantships. You get $1000 a month plus full tuition waiver. These programs are extremely competitive in terms of admissions. I would be sacrificing a good income in my late 50s if I quit to enter such a program, getting the degree at age 61 or so (one hopes). There are CW teaching jobs at community colleges and universities, though they are hard to get.

I'm just curious to get some input from others out there who like to write--and who like the idea of a subsidized writing PhD; gosh, you get to write whatever you like, since the dissertation is a creative one, not a scholarly one, and you get to sit around and read novels all day, and you get paid for it--but is it worth it if you're in your late 50s?

[ls650]

Financially, maybe not - but this sounds more like a decision you should make for reasons of personal satisfaction, not financial.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Agreed. PhDs are generally a losing proposition financially regardless of your age. If you start one make sure you are passionate about what you plan on studying.

[globalnomad2]

Thanks for the input so far. I suppose I think of the Creative Writing PhD as twofold: personal satisfaction, yes, and also a way to qualify to teach university classes to American students. But it would come at the sacrifice of three or four years of good income from ages 57 to 61.

[sunrader]

For creative writing, an MFA is often the terminal degree and might be easier to get into than a PhD program and shorter. There's a good 3 year one at University of Idaho where the TAs are pretty happy. I'm not in it, I'm in TESL, but we share the same department and teach the same writing classes. I don't think getting a job teaching writing in the US universities is all that easy, though, because, for one thing, they staff a lot of the classes with the cheap labor of TAs in their creative writing and TESL programs.

[comenius]

I've taught university level ESL in the US with a MA. I think the only reason I would need a Ph.D. is if I wanted to teach students that wanted to become teachers in an accredited degree granting program. The university work I've done has always been for their ESL programs.

[globalnomad2]

Yes, I should have mentioned, I already have two MA's and I don't want a third, even if it's an MFA. I was accepted into Eastern Washington University's MFA program in 2005 but took another job in the UAE instead.

[tedkarma]

I've thought about such a program too, primarily for the personal satisfaction.

One useful reason though - if a bit younger is that such a degree can pay off well, if not in money sometimes in opportunity.

I am quite aware that the PhD that replaced me at a university in Korea started for roughly TWICE what I was earning - and I was making a pretty good wage!

[globalnomad2]

Yes! And a PhD gets you out of teaching 20 hours a week and being treated like a school teacher (i.e., ESL/EFL) instead of real faculty.

[guangho]

You can't lose with higher education- that is, the higher the education level, the higher the income. As Ted wrote, this is true even in places where a Ph.D. is not an absolute requirement- private high schools in Evanston, IL hire Ph.D.'s at 80-100K/yr. A Ph.D. should not be a costly one with a fellowship/studentship. I know one website which disperses the info about these studentships (linguistlist) but it would be good if others can post about similar sites.

An additional thought on MFA's- yes, they are a terminal degree, but that does not = teaching opportunities. Many unis now want a Ph.D. in rhetoric and composition.

[shuize]

A PhD. in creative writing has always struck me as a rather dubious academic achievement. It sort of reminds me of those "How to Win at Blackjack" books. If the author is such a great gambler, why isn't he out busting the casino? Or in this case, touring the country promoting the next bestseller? It's not because he can't. No, no. It's because he'd really prefer to be stuck teaching a "workshop" full of bored, clove-smoking Emo kids about "dark" and "light" imagery. Sure thing.

[sidjameson]

No one is mentioning the guys age!

He'll be 61. There are many countries that he wouldn't be able to get a visa. There will be many employers who wont hire someone that age. Isn't forced retirement at 65 or whatever a issue as well?

Now, as a personal choice I think it is a great one whatever the age, but without more details on the OP's situation; current salary, savings, future inheritance, financial aspirations etc it is impossible to say wether it is a viable deal or not.

[shuize]

[globalnomad2]

Dubious achievement? It's the same PhD as that in literature, except the dissertation is creative rather than scholarly. The difference is, as I mentioned, you get to be a subsidized writer for a few years, and when you're done you get to teach 9 or 12 hours to native speakers (as faculty) instead of 20 hours EFL. It also helps you get published. I have written a book but it's hard to get published in the US/UK. But other points well-taken: no, I'm not really set for retirement aside from owning a house outright.

[shuize]