Job Discussion Forums

Queen of Sheba · Joined: 07 May 2006 Posts: 397

Thanks for the detailed reply MAStudent that puts it into perspective. Yet Cleo raises a good point, Muslim men and women can dress modestly without imitating the dress of the Gulf Arabs. I also don�t think it�s appropriate to say that some men in Saudi Arabia wear their thobes too tight or too long, it is after all a matter of personal choice and its their their traditional attire, so they must best know how to wear it. They have their own "fashions" that change from season to season, both in thobes and abayas. We are not Saudi so we do not understand all these nuances of dress but they do exist and there are even fashion designers that focus on these garnments. In addition, this is their traditional attire, so why should the opinion of a non-Saudi matter, and why would you, a non-Saudi, judge them for it?

While I agree that people should be able to wear what they like and cultures are merging more and more as we move towards a "global community" that doesn�t give some the option to open fire about what is correct and incorrect attire. One Muslim isn�t more Muslim for having judged others either. In addition, you mentioned that the abaya women in Saudi Arabia wear is the most appropriate traditionally, and this is simply not true. The fashions in abayas are changing and indeed the newer models reflect the styles of several decades ago. As a woman, I may be familiar with this, in addition I have Saudi women friends who have told me and shown me their traditional dresses and abayas of the past, as this is an area of interest of mine. It's interesting that some people adopt the dress of a culture that is not their own, and I wanted to understand the impetus behind that. Yet for others, imitation is the best form of flattery, thus I have to wonder if it's done because it gains them some credibility and wasta in a country not their own.

007 · Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject:

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

So you expect me to believe two made-up names on the internet, one who misquotes the French authority and the other who is delusional about Muslim garb in Sri Lanka instead of a widely-accepted religious authority or the Saudi government!

amity · Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 72 Location: central Texas

I found this video while prowling the web for a new abaya. The variety in interpretations of "modest" among Muslim women around the world is astounding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58jpmpT_wco

Maybe a little off-topic, maybe not.

007 · Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject:

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

Shorts used to be fairly common Muslim female attire in Indonesia; I don't know if this is still so.

amity · Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 72 Location: central Texas

Cleopatra · Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject:

Queen of Sheba · Joined: 07 May 2006 Posts: 397

ALPH · Joined: 18 Jan 2006 Posts: 87

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

I haven't a reference to the quotation referring to a Moslem woman's religious obligation regarding her dress, but this statement from the mufti of Marseilles is pretty clear:

Examples of Islamic authorities who believe that respecting Islamic tenets does not require the wearing of the veil by Muslim: Soheib Bencheikh, grand mufti of Marseille, in the magazine "Elle", March 2, 1998: �It's not about Islam, but a Mediterranean mechanism coupled with an archaic vision of Muslim law. It is abnormal that this interpretation of sacred texts, made for a society that no longer exists, should remain as such. It's as if, today, France were to continue [the laws of] the inquisition or the precepts of the age of the Crusades with vigor. The Islamists support a theology that no longer has a place. They apply the laws of an archaic canon to the letter.�

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_veil_controversy_in_France#_note-first

The Grand Mufti of Al-Azhar stated that the obligation on a Muslim women only applied in a Muslim country, which is a different view again.

The truth is it is quite wrong to say that there is no dispute on the matter.

007 · Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject:

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

goingbald · Joined: 05 Feb 2007 Posts: 15 Location: Earth

Dear all,

I fear this discussion stands a good chance of being locked, because it is descending into bickering. However, that doesn't mean I don't wish to give my two penn'o'th on the subject!

Different believers accept different hadith???? Very strange to me. A book of hadith, for example saheeh al bukhari, or saheeh muslim, or sunan abi dawud, or al musnad, of imam ahmad, and many others, is a collection of narrations.

What is a hadith? It is a statement about something the Prophet Muhammad, peace and prayers be upon him, is reported to have said, done, tacitly approved of, or been described with.

A hadith is based on a chain of narrators, starting with the person who recorded the hadith, and ending with the Prophet. Different grades of authenticity are given to the hadith based on different criteria, one of which is the condition of each narrator in the chain. i.e. was he known to be a liar or known to be trustworthy? Did he ever meet the people that it is claimed that he narrated from? etc.

Forget asking the Mufti of places X, Y and Z. Get someone who speaks Arabic to phone the Mufti of KSA and settle the matter.

No offence ladies and gents: you can't pluck a judgment out of thin air if you're not a Muslim and haven't spent a rather long time studying the texts IN ARABIC and deriving the rulings from them. Very few people are qualified to do that. People who frequent forums, such as the esteemed Dave's, are certainly not qualified for it.

I reiterate my advice to ANY woman working in KSA, Muslimah or not, that she cover her hair. Whether she covers her face is a different issue. If she does not cover her hair, she will probably be regarded as loose and degenerate, but that is her concern. At the same time, it certainly does not mean that people will be waiting to chop her head off at the most convenient moment.

Saudi Arabia remains arguably the safest place on earth, for Muslims and disbelievers alike.

A lovely link for you:

www.sacredfreedom.net

And by the way, I wear a thobe because I like it. I saw a shaykh wearing it in 2002 (also a red headscarf), and thought "ooh, I like the look of that". So now I wear them all the time. Yes, indeed, sometimes I love to wear shorts and t-shirt. But in public? It is a tad on the "dressing down" side.

Being modest is all about covering the "awrah" i.e. the parts of the body that it is not permissible to expose. Men's and women's awrahs are different. I do not wear tight jeans, I never wear speedo swimming trunks. I like my body to be covered, and covered properly. For work, it's no big deal, but for prayer, I don't want to be wearing trousers, prostrate and know that the shape of my bum and private parts is precisely defined by my clothes!

It's got nothing to do with which country or not, native speaker or not. It's all about a person's willingness to cover up because he or she knows that their Creator sees everything they do.

Cheers,

gb

goingbald · Joined: 05 Feb 2007 Posts: 15 Location: Earth

Dear all,

I fear this discussion stands a good chance of being locked, because it is descending into bickering. However, that doesn't mean I don't wish to give my two penn'o'th on the subject!

Different believers accept different hadith???? Very strange to me. A book of hadith, for example saheeh al bukhari, or saheeh muslim, or sunan abi dawud, or al musnad, of imam ahmad, and many others, is a collection of narrations.

What is a hadith? It is a statement about something the Prophet Muhammad, peace and prayers be upon him, is reported to have said, done, tacitly approved of, or been described with.

A hadith is based on a chain of narrators, starting with the person who recorded the hadith, and ending with the Prophet. Different grades of authenticity are given to the hadith based on different criteria, one of which is the condition of each narrator in the chain. i.e. was he known to be a liar or known to be trustworthy? Did he ever meet the people that it is claimed that he narrated from? etc.

Forget asking the Mufti of places X, Y and Z. Get someone who speaks Arabic to phone the Mufti of KSA and settle the matter.

No offence ladies and gents: you can't pluck a judgment out of thin air if you're not a Muslim and haven't spent a rather long time studying the texts IN ARABIC and deriving the rulings from them. Very few people are qualified to do that. People who frequent forums, such as the esteemed Dave's, are certainly not qualified for it.

I reiterate my advice to ANY woman working in KSA, Muslimah or not, that she cover her hair. Whether she covers her face is a different issue. If she does not cover her hair, she will probably be regarded as loose and degenerate, but that is her concern. At the same time, it certainly does not mean that people will be waiting to chop her head off at the most convenient moment.

Saudi Arabia remains arguably the safest place on earth, for Muslims and disbelievers alike.

A lovely link for you:

www.sacredfreedom.net

And by the way, I wear a thobe because I like it. I saw a shaykh wearing it in 2002 (also a red headscarf), and thought "ooh, I like the look of that". So now I wear them all the time. Yes, indeed, sometimes I love to wear shorts and t-shirt. But in public? It is a tad on the "dressing down" side.

Being modest is all about covering the "awrah" i.e. the parts of the body that it is not permissible to expose. Men's and women's awrahs are different. I do not wear tight jeans, I never wear speedo swimming trunks. I like my body to be covered, and covered properly. For work, it's no big deal, but for prayer, I don't want to be wearing trousers, prostrate and know that the shape of my bum and private parts is precisely defined by my clothes!

It's got nothing to do with which country or not, native speaker or not. It's all about a person's willingness to cover up because he or she knows that their Creator sees everything they do.

Cheers,

gb