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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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 Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| So much for the suggestion that it is a safer bet to avoid chain schools. |
When talking about chain schools...the best bet is to avoid franchises and stick with solid owner controled group of schools...avoiding EF will only serve to help avoid the problems associated with EF schools...schools such as Language Link may be a better choice. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| When talking about chain schools...the best bet is to avoid franchises and stick with solid owner controled group of schools... |
Fair comment, the problem however is that some franchises exceed what company owned branches can offer so by avoiding all franchise operations you are also avoiding some of these good jobs. Of course some franchises are also nightmares. It all depends upon the owner, the management, and the other staff, and this is why I still advocate independant research on individual schools rather than blanket statements. Each to their own I suppose. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Fair comment, the problem however is that some franchises exceed what company owned branches can offer so by avoiding all franchise operations you are also avoiding some of these good jobs. |
as per this site..most of the franchise schools are the lowest paid with the most hours and additonal duty.... |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| as per this site..most of the franchise schools are the lowest paid with the most hours and additonal duty.... |
C�mon CJ you nihilist tyke - jus look at some of the stuff they let you do when working for a typical Chain mill - here's an example from that fine outfit called Aston (article found on the Aston site) -
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KFC and Dongying Aston a perfect partnership
The Dongying Aston School has been working in conjunction with KFC to give back to the community through our weekly English corners. They have been a great success usually having 60-80 enthused participants attend each week. The English corners have provided a wonderful opportunity for the people of Dongying to meet the Aston foreign teachers and engage in culture exchange. KFC has been so pleased with our partnership they have insisted that the Aston school extend there English corners to all three of their locations. |
To be positive about Aston�s - you can say they are honest!!!! I can't see EF letting on to their recruits that a similar kind of fate may await them  |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: |
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and yet another affiliation of an educational institution to a food chain outlet 
EF's McEducational system and its McEmployees have got little to boast with if it comes to uniformity  "Some" McEmployees do not know that they are McEmployees, "some" McClasses are just ChClasses, "some" McChemployers do not follow the McOrganizational structure and standards, "some" McRoyalty fees are kept by McChemployers etc...so much for mixin' up the food with education 
however, it sure is one way to delude the facts that EF franchisees have taken the western brand name and its values "under their own wings" and franchisors have enjoyed the "profitable" ride on those "wings"
peace to the EF founder
and
cheers and beers to all those that "head" the affairs of EF English First |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| Do FTs get to wear a chicken suit? That would be so ...... funny. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| as per this site..most of the franchise schools are the lowest paid with the most hours and additonal duty.... |
There are plenty of government and private schools that pay less than chains. Schools that pay RMB3,000 or even less for 16 or so hours a week work out at less per hour than the average chain that offers RMB6,000 or more for 30 or more hours a week.
If the complaint is high work loads then private training institutes are guilty hands down.
If the complaint is earning power then I believe that chains are actually a good prospect if you are willing to work hard. I would not say a better prospect than any alternative, but certainly a good prospect when compared to many outside positions.
Someone who wants to earn lots of money could work at a chain for base salary, take on extra hours at overtime rates as there are generally plenty of classes available, and as chains are often located in cities picking up privates is generally not too difficult. There is also the possibility of picking up teacher training hours, writing work etc. That is a lot of work, but also the potential for pretty reasonable money for those who want that.
A teacher working at an isolated school with a work requirement of 14-20 hours a week often has no opportunity to pick up extra hours at the school. Often there is unpaid preparation time as there may be no curriculum or a very poor one that requires the teacher to do lots of independant prep-work. Privates are a possibility if the market there is good for that, but if not then the isolation generally limits one's earning power to the salary earned.
To me it really depends upon the individual and what they want from their experience here. I don't think that we can generalize and say that one is better than the other, and to that end I certainly don't agree with the suggestion that you can't earn good money working for a chain. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: |
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cj750 wrote:
as per this site..most of the franchise schools are the lowest paid with the most hours and additonal duty....
There are plenty of government and private schools that pay less than chains. Schools that pay RMB3,000 or even less for 16 or so hours a week work out at less per hour than the average chain that offers RMB6,000 or more for 30 or more hours a week. |
If you look at the work requirements, Schools such as EF will work you more for the money than a public school or institute.
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If the complaint is earning power then I believe that chains are actually a good prospect if you are willing to work hard. I would not say a better prospect than any alternative, but certainly a good prospect when compared to many outside positions.
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Totally backwards. With the amount of hours required by chains when compared to institutions, it is a better bet to working additional hours as well as the requirement of many chain schools not to work for the competition.
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There is also the possibility of picking up teacher training hours, writing work etc. That is a lot of work, but also the potential for pretty reasonable money for those who want that.
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Very misleading. If you want extra hours, you first must have the hours to give. Language mills such as EF will eat up your time.
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| To me it really depends upon the individual and what they want from their experience here. I don't think that we can generalize and say that one is better than the other, and to that end I certainly don't agree with the suggestion that you can't earn good money working for a chain. |
Since there is less time to earn tht money when working for a chain, it would be unlikely....... |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Clarkie, you've been "thinking", "agreeing", "disagreeing", "suggesting" etc on many EF related threads a lot and I still am and I believe that many others have been wondering what kind of salary, working hours and places you've worked in 
Peace to buximan's knowledge of chain schools
and
cheers and beers to his input on EF related threads  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| If you look at the work requirements, Schools such as EF will work you more for the money than a public school or institute. |
Well this is where it gets subjective. Some people actually like working for the money that they earn, while others prefer relaxed work environments. I think that it is unfair to assume that a chain school work environment is a bad one just because it may not suit you personally.
| cj750 wrote: |
| With the amount of hours required by chains when compared to institutions, it is a better bet to working additional hours as well as the requirement of many chain schools not to work for the competition. |
I understand your point and it is certainly valid, but I don't agree with it necessarily.
While it is of course true that the less hours you have tied up with your salaried work the more you will have available for outside work, I believe that the relatively high monthly salary plus the location of chain schools make them good launching pads for those wanting to earn more cash. You have a good base salary, you are often in a good central location, you have good access to potential private students who are willing and able to pay top dollar, and you have access to other opportunities also.
Many, but of course not all, of the public schools etc outside of the private training school environment are located in fringe areas of cities. This can limit your potential pool of opportunity for privates and work outside of your main employer. Of course the reverse can also be true in some cases as real isolation may give you a monopoly in your area, but in those cases the amount that you can reasonably expect to earn for each hour is also often relatively low.
Overall I believe that those working in central locations in larger cities are likely going to be able to earn more. And these areas are where the chain schools locate themselves. Hopefully money is not the sole motivator, but as we are discussing earning potential I really feel that overlooking chain schools is a mistake here. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I believe that the relatively high monthly salary plus the location of chain schools make them good launching pads for those wanting to earn more cash. You have a good base salary, you are often in a good central location, you have good access to potential private students who are willing and able to pay top dollar, and you have access to other opportunities also. |
But EF requires its employees to do 40 hours (when not teaching you have to do office hours) - and what about all those tedious extra chores of having to go to English corners etc etc (I wonder if they do wear chicken costumes). Be careful folks a life like - working 40 hours in the mill + extra hours doing privates - may lead to premature ageing!!!!
Actually those who do work at EF may find their center employs so-called "part-timers" � at much better hourly rates of pay than the full time staff - and so many of these staff come from the public school/university sector, since their more leisurely working regimes easily allows for "extra" work in other sectors!!! |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Well this is where it gets subjective. Some people actually like working for the money that they earn, while others prefer relaxed work environments. I think that it is unfair to assume that a chain school work environment is a bad one just because it may not suit you personally. |
so, WHICH ONE IS YOUR PREFERENCE?
IF YOU DID NOT HAVE A COMPUTER, YOU WOULD NOT KNOW WHAT FTS HAVE TO GO THROUGH IN CHINA
Peace to our subjective views
and
cheers and beers to all computers as well as our forums |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: |
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I once took a part time position at EF and at the same time had a few more sideline jobs. The EF staff did have a full workload and the center had to go outside their workers to staff new classes. The accounting is a little fuzzy though as they offered an hourly rate but then when it cam e time to pay, they subtracted the break periods, making the rate around the same as other language mills with no actual break as teaching staff was required to stay on the floor at all times so that students could have access to the teacher.
Now as to the rural environment, this only serves to put a teacher out in an area where a few schools are and time to work the other part time jobs. If you had ever worked in that environment you would know that usually there is an area where there are a few schools and that a lot of the extra work is on the weekends and evenings. A language mill job will not allow these times off.
Clark, do you know anything about language mills....
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| you have good access to potential private students who are willing and able to pay top dollar, and you have access to other opportunities also |
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A language mill will have your a$$ for taking students and turning them into private students.
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| I believe that the relatively high monthly salary plus the location of chain schools make them good launching pads for those wanting to earn more cash. |
Take the 40 hour work week and the pay is not so high......
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| real isolation may give you a monopoly in your area, but in those cases the amount that you can reasonably expect to earn for each hour is also often relatively low. |
isolation means your the only game in town and therefore in higher demand...have you ever been a FT... |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| The accounting is a little fuzzy though as they offered an hourly rate but then when it cam e time to pay, they subtracted the break periods, making the rate around the same as other language mills with no actual break as teaching staff was required to stay on the floor at all times so that students could have access to the teacher. |
Different schools have different rules here and I think that it is a good idea for teachers to clarify the requirements outside of the classroom. If all is made clear upfront and both the teacher and the school agree to the terms then I don�t see the problem. Again you may not like it personally but that does not make it bad practice.
| cj750 wrote: |
| Now as to the rural environment, this only serves to put a teacher out in an area where a few schools are and time to work the other part time jobs. If you had ever worked in that environment you would know that usually there is an area where there are a few schools and that a lot of the extra work is on the weekends and evenings. A language mill job will not allow these times off. |
You are incorrectly assuming that I have not had such experience.
While I agree that there are indeed some public and private positions in small cities and rural areas that enable teachers to pick up lots of outside work, these are in the minority. Most such schools are not conveniently located for work outside of the actual school that you are teaching in and therefore unless you can pick up privates within that school you are often clear out of luck. So you end up with lots of time on your hands but little opportunity to earn money which as I say suits some teachers but not others.
Private language training centers are not the only places where you can earn good money. I am not suggesting that. I am merely disagreeing with notion that you can�t earn good money at those places.
| cj750 wrote: |
| Clark, do you know anything about language mills.... |
Am I an expert on them � no. Have I worked for private language training centers before � yes. Seems to me that we are all in the same boat here so I am not sure why some posters feel that they are such authorities on the subject!
| cj750 wrote: |
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| you have good access to potential private students who are willing and able to pay top dollar, and you have access to other opportunities also |
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A language mill will have your a$$ for taking students and turning them into private students. |
You have misinterpreted my post. Go back and have another look at it. I am referring to the fact that as most private language training centers are in central locations in cities that you have good access to potential privates. I did not suggest that stealing students from the school is appropriate, nor do I believe it to be appropriate. Besides the moral problems with that it seems to me to be a case of stealing money from your right pocket to put into the left.
Many public schools are in fringe areas and outside of city limits and therefore access to potential private students is often limited � especially those who are willing and able to pay well for classes.
| cj750 wrote: |
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| real isolation may give you a monopoly in your area, but in those cases the amount that you can reasonably expect to earn for each hour is also often relatively low. |
isolation means your the only game in town and therefore in higher demand...have you ever been a FT... |
First off there are not generally as many people in isolated areas who want to study English one on one with a foreigner so your potential pool of possible students is not as high as in the big cities. Add to that the fact that any students you do find in those areas are generally not willing or not able to pay as much per hour as students in central areas of big cities and I think you understand my point here.
Is it possible to clean up in some of these types of isolated positions � yes I can think of cases where wealthy students stuck out in the boonies may pay the only foreign teacher available for some extra classes. But I think that these cases would be the exception rather than the rule.
To me the suggestion that you can earn more on the side in isolated small city or fringe area jobs than you can a job in the big cities is really questionable and comes across to me as just being nothing more than a desperate attempt to further the myth that chain schools should be avoided. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: |
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Dear schools in Taiwan and China,
EF related threads have become your hobby as it looks and there's nothing wrong with that to a certain point...
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| Different schools have different rules here and I think that it is a good idea for teachers to clarify the requirements outside of the classroom. If all is made clear upfront and both the teacher and the school agree to the terms then I don�t see the problem. Again you may not like it personally but that does not make it bad practice. |
EF English First should not have "defferent schools", but you are allowed to "think" on our lovely forums. Now, I know that it is difficult for you to "see the problem", since you have not worked in EF or as a teacher before.
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One wrote:
Now as to the rural environment, this only serves to put a teacher out in an area where a few schools are and time to work the other part time jobs. If you had ever worked in that environment you would know that usually there is an area where there are a few schools and that a lot of the extra work is on the weekends and evenings. A language mill job will not allow these times off.
You replied:
You are incorrectly assuming that I have not had such experience. |
Peoples assumptions about you are a result of your forums thinking, agreeing, disagreeing etc....WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE
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| Am I an expert on them � no. Have I worked for private language training centers before � yes. Seems to me that we are all in the same boat here so I am not sure why some posters feel that they are such authorities on the subject! |
Well, many of us have been waiting for your "yes" answer for quite a while. I don't think that this is about "some posters" authorities on the subject", but this is about an open discussion and who we are. Forgive me for bringinig this in again but if one (like you) owns a website that advertises schools and keeps in touch with those schools, he/she (you) might as well be bias on the subjects...has been discussed before, hasn't it? I know that you vehemently deny those kinds of charges, but the truth is... 
Now, you would not disclose the schools that you have worked for, would you?
And, I and some others might appreciate if you decreased the number of issues and words in your posts that have little or nothing to do with the topic with all due respect to your knowledge and experience.
Peace to buximan's schools in Taiwan and China as well as his enlightening posts on
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cheers and beers to Internet |
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