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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Not tiresome, as I have made my points, yet you avoid them.
| nonsmoker wrote: |
| I memorize about 6 Hiraganas a day to prepare myself for the day when I will have to tackle the Kanji! |
He is doing what most people do when starting out in Japanese. Would you agree?
| JonnyB61 wrote: |
| I hate to pee on your parade Nonsmoker, but it doesn't matter how much hiragana you learn, it won't prepare you for learning kanji. |
This is not true. What about furigana? Furigana helps prepare you for learning new kanji.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| There is a stroke order with both hiragana and kanji. |
I also mentioned about the stroke order. And you agreed.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| By the way, you have said that hiragana is derived from kanji. What is your evidence for such a blatantly counter-intuitive claim? |
I even provide a source indicating that hiragana syllables developed from Chinese characters.
Hopefully, you can take some time out from chain smoking, coughing up a lung and bothering those poor souls over on the Off Topic China forum to give your head a shake on this one. Hiragana first. It helps. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| canuck wrote: |
Not tiresome, as I have made my points, yet you avoid them.
| nonsmoker wrote: |
| I memorize about 6 Hiraganas a day to prepare myself for the day when I will have to tackle the Kanji! |
He is doing what most people do when starting out in Japanese. Would you agree?
| JonnyB61 wrote: |
| I hate to pee on your parade Nonsmoker, but it doesn't matter how much hiragana you learn, it won't prepare you for learning kanji. |
This is not true. What about furigana? Furigana helps prepare you for learning new kanji.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| There is a stroke order with both hiragana and kanji. |
I also mentioned about the stroke order. And you agreed.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| By the way, you have said that hiragana is derived from kanji. What is your evidence for such a blatantly counter-intuitive claim? |
I even provide a source indicating that hiragana syllables developed from Chinese characters.
Hopefully, you can take some time out from chain smoking, coughing up a lung and bothering those poor souls over on the Off Topic China forum to give your head a shake on this one. Hiragana first. It helps. |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| canuck wrote: |
Not tiresome, as I have made my points, yet you avoid them.
| nonsmoker wrote: |
| I memorize about 6 Hiraganas a day to prepare myself for the day when I will have to tackle the Kanji! |
He is doing what most people do when starting out in Japanese. Would you agree?
| JonnyB61 wrote: |
| I hate to pee on your parade Nonsmoker, but it doesn't matter how much hiragana you learn, it won't prepare you for learning kanji. |
This is not true. What about furigana? Furigana helps prepare you for learning new kanji.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| There is a stroke order with both hiragana and kanji. |
I also mentioned about the stroke order. And you agreed.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| By the way, you have said that hiragana is derived from kanji. What is your evidence for such a blatantly counter-intuitive claim? |
I even provide a source indicating that hiragana syllables developed from Chinese characters.
Hopefully, you can take some time out from chain smoking, coughing up a lung and bothering those poor souls over on the Off Topic China forum to give your head a shake on this one. Hiragana first. It helps. |
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I'm correct, again. So, that's the end of thread. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Look up the word "obtuse", canuck.
I have already pointed out that your link does not show any meaningful way in which learning hiragana can help anyone learn kanji. Yet you are still claimimg it does. If your point is that learning hiragana helps you learn Japanese then that is a no-brainer. Of course it does. Now, Canuck, think. I know it is hard for you but just try anyway.
People can learn to speak a language without ever learning how to write it.
Agreed?
People can also learn how to read and write hiragana without ever learning much kanji.
Agreed?
Also, some people, especially from places such as China will be able to learn kanji without ever having learnt hiragana.
Agreed?
Also, that link you provided that showed how hiragana is derived from kanji is pathetic. Look at it again. Do you honestly think it demonstrates any simililarities? Look again at "tsu".
The others are highly elaborated on. No need to think that they give any better understanding to the student of kanji as the etymology of "shield" would do for English students. |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
Look up the word "obtuse", canuck.
I have already pointed out that your link does not show any meaningful way in which learning hiragana can help anyone learn kanji. Yet you are still claimimg it does. If your point is that learning hiragana helps you learn Japanese then that is a no-brainer. Of course it does. Now, Canuck, think. I know it is hard for you but just try anyway.
People can learn to speak a language without ever learning how to write it.
Agreed?
People can also learn how to read and write hiragana without ever learning much kanji.
Agreed?
Also, some people, especially from places such as China will be able to learn kanji without ever having learnt hiragana.
Agreed?
Also, that link you provided that showed how hiragana is derived from kanji is pathetic. Look at it again. Do you honestly think it demonstrates any simililarities? Look again at "tsu".
The others are highly elaborated on. No need to think that they give any better understanding to the student of kanji as the etymology of "shield" would do for English students. |
You are changing the discussion completely. However, let's play your game.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
Look up the word "obtuse", canuck.
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I did. All I found were references to people who buy scooters because they can't ride a bicycle, people who pay 30,000 yen for an interview and a cup of coffee and people who have a hard time finding a job and start calling hairdressers racist because they won't speak English to them.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
I have already pointed out that your link does not show any meaningful way in which learning hiragana can help anyone learn kanji. Yet you are still claimimg it does. If your point is that learning hiragana helps you learn Japanese then that is a no-brainer. Of course it does. |
So, I am right.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
People can learn to speak a language without ever learning how to write it.
Agreed? |
Yes, agreed. But that wasn't the discussion, was it?
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
People can also learn how to read and write hiragana without ever learning much kanji.
Agreed? |
Correct. All Japanese can read hiragana too. Children learn it in school. Many older Japanese have trouble with kanji, and that is why furigana is used.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
Also, some people, especially from places such as China will be able to learn kanji without ever having learnt hiragana.
Agreed? |
Yes, but in order to understand written Japanese, they will have to learn hiragana and also learn the different sounds and Japanese meanings for the kanji.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| Also, that link you provided that showed how hiragana is derived from kanji is pathetic. Look at it again. Do you honestly think it demonstrates any simililarities? Look again at "tsu". |
The symbols derived from kanji. That's what I said and I was correct. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, for fuck's sake!
| Quote: |
furiousmilksheikali wrote:
I have already pointed out that your link does not show any meaningful way in which learning hiragana can help anyone learn kanji. Yet you are still claimimg it does. If your point is that learning hiragana helps you learn Japanese then that is a no-brainer. Of course it does.
So, I am right.
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No, the discussion wasn't about whether hiragana would help someone learn Japanese but whether or not it would help someone learn kanji. A big difference.
| Quote: |
Many older Japanese have trouble with kanji, and that is why furigana is used.
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What is this nonsense? Furigana is not used for helping older Japanese.
| canuck wrote: |
Yes, but in order to understand written Japanese, they will have to learn hiragana and also learn the different sounds and Japanese meanings for the kanji.
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Bullshit!
What do you mean by this?
Hearing the sounds is completely seperate from being able to read. Most Chinese people could read and understand a lot of Japanese by simply looking at the kanji. Apart from that if they were to read and write hiragana they wouldn't even need to be able to hear Japanese which proves that both your strong and weak arguments are bollocks. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| canuck wrote: |
When learning kanji, do you believe it's helpful to also know hiragana? Yes, of course. +1 canuck.
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| By the way, you have said that hiragana is derived from kanji. What is your evidence for such a blatantly counter-intuitive claim? |
As per the link:
| Quote: |
Origin
Hiragana syllables developed from Chinese characters, as shown below. Hiragana were originally called onnade or 'women's hand' as were used mainly by women - men wrote in kanji and katakana. By the 10th century, hiragana were used by everybody. The word hiragana means "oridinary syllabic script".
In early versions of hiragana there were often many different characters to represent the same syllable, however the system was eventually simplified so that there was a one-to-one relationship between spoken and written syllables. The present orthography of hiragana was codified by the Japanese government in 1946.
The hiragana syllabary
In each column the rōmaji appears on the left, the hiragana symbols in the middle and the kanji from which they developed on the right. There is some dispute about which kanji the hiragana developed from. |
+2 canuck
Do children of Japanese learn hiragana before they learn kanji? Yes, of course. Why? Because it is the elementary building blocks to the Japanese writing system. Kanji often appear with hiragana, and many words do not have a kanji equivalent. Furthermore, while learning kanji, if you can understand the rest of the sentence, you can guess at the meanings of the kanji, even if you haven't previously studied the specific kanji. As a Japanese learner, I'm sure you understand this. +3 canuck
Furigana is found in many books. By being able to read the hiragana above the kanji, you are able to learn the sounds of the kanji and hopefully remember it in the future. Helpful? Yes. +4 canuck.
Do you think they are different as chalk and cheese? LOL I didn't think so. |
Do I think you are as gay as a window?
Yes, I do.
How ridiculous you are Wayne, when you assume some random internet link furnishes you with the understanding of a language you are clearly far from proficient in.
Look up "ri". Tell me how the hiragana is clearly the basis for this symbol. Look up "na". Tell me about that too. Look up "ki". Do you really think that knowing the hiragana for these sounds gives you a better understanding of the kanji? |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| canuck wrote: |
| Many older Japanese have trouble with kanji, and that is why furigana is used. |
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| What is this nonsense? Furigana is not used for helping older Japanese. |
Circles and circles.
However, I will educate you on this one. Yes, furigana is also directed at the older generation, to help. The most common is unusual or rare readings for kanji. It is also used to help children when reading kanji. It is used to help foreigners read. And yes, it is used, with older Japanese in mind, as many older Japanese couldn't afford to go to school, or didn't get a proper education during the war. Ask some of your Japanese friends (if you have any) about this. Ask them about their grandparents etc. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Pearls before swine. |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| JonnyB61 wrote: |
| I hate to pee on your parade Nonsmoker, but it doesn't matter how much hiragana you learn, it won't prepare you for learning kanji. |
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| If your point is that learning hiragana helps you learn Japanese then that is a no-brainer. Of course it does. |
| canuck wrote: |
| Learning kanji to read is essential to mastering the Japanese language. Many Japanese words do not have kanji. To be able to read fluently, one must know both hiragana and kanji. Being able learn new kanji in the context of a sentence is very helpful. Furthermore, when learning Japanese, many books use hiragana instead of kanji, especially if the reader is not expected to know know the kanji or the kanji is very difficult to write. |
| canuck wrote: |
| Hiragana derived from kanji and is an essential building block to written Japanese. Master hiragana first, and tackle kanji afterwards is an excellent rule to follow. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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You can learn all hiragana in a week or two. Same with katakana. Do them in that order.
As for learning kanji, knowing how to pronounce the ON and KUN readings is a challenge for anyone, Japanese or otherwise. Primers for us foreigners and for the Japanese include furigana. Furigana is also used for other written materials, mostly as a reminder to adults how to pronounce certain kanji.
Furigana, hiragana, and katakana will not help you one iota in being able to write kanji, though. That is something that takes immense practice, and it is why students spend 12 years of their lives in primary and secondary school trying to memorize the 2000 or so basic kanji needed to make it through daily life. And, even that many won't guarantee that you can read a newspaper. The characters of these 3 alphabets are so different, that learning stroke order for hiragana and katakana is virtually meaningless to learning stroke order for kanji. (Some elements are contained in kanji, but by and large kanji are totally different.)
How one learns how to write (and read) kanji is a personal individual thing (for us foreigners). Go with whatever works for you.
Just remember that foreigners are given a lot of slack by the Japanese in how much of their language they can speak, read, and write simply because many Japanese feel it is impossible for a foreigner to learn. And, once you feel you've mastered it, you may even be treated differently, not with as open arms as you might think, because now you are privy to their "secrets" and can understand many things people around you might say about you. |
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JonnyB61
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 216
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:02 am Post subject: |
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Current odds being quoted by the bookies as to when this thread gets locked:
This page - evens
Page 4 - 5 / 4 odds on favourite
Page 5 - 11 / 8
Page 6 - 9 /4
Page 7 - 3 / 1
33 / 1 bar these
Dave's ESL Cafe Rules apply. The Moderator's decision is final. No discussion will be entered into. No prizes will be paid until the result is confirmed. |
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southofreality
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 579
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: |
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Let me just say that I have thoroughly enjoyed this exchange of ideas and am most certainly looking forward to more exchanges in the future.
Anxiously waiting... |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| southofreality wrote: |
Let me just say that I have thoroughly enjoyed this exchange of ideas and am most certainly looking forward to more exchanges in the future.
Anxiously waiting... |
An exchange of ideas suggests that they go more than just one way.
Nevermind... |
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markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Now I know (after skimming through the last 20 posts) why I didn't get involved in this thread. Anyhow one point did interest me. Furious's contention that hiragana is not derived from kanji is incorrect. Hiragana was developed by Court ladies writing poetry. It is an abbreviated form and any one who has written endless lines of kanji with brush and ink could recognise it as such.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana |
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