Job Discussion Forums

[sheeba]

[Yu]

So... I realize I am an idiot and I cut and pasted some scores wrong. I went over the part I cut and pasted and found that it is just 20 students who fail. About 11 of those have between 55 and 59%. OUCH!

One student who has a 57 came to me and pleaded with me to help him. Just before he comes to me my boss instructed me not to change any grades. Not even to add one point.... so I told the student there was nothing I can do.

On one hand, I am frustrated because I feel my work here is pointless. On the other hand, I also wonder why I should care. The reality is if I do not force my students to learn something, they will be lazy. If they are lazy, I end up unhappy about the teaching as well. So students need to prepare for class, so I can teach them.

Anyway, whiny student kept whinking, so I took out his exam and explained exactly why he failed it. Then I told him there are probably some places I could add some points to his grade, but I am not allowed to add points now.

So I talked to the leader and told him I would like to go over some scores of students who generally had good attendnance, but did bery bad on the test to see if they really deserve to fail. If he fails, he does not graduate on time, and he passed the exam to Fudan University so he could miss that opportunity if I fail him. WOW.

So I dont feel it is necerssary to ruin the futures of 20 students. I told him those students who got less that 55 would fail. It is about 10. For the others, I said I would review their exams to see if I missed any points.

For students who fail, there will be a make up exam in summer. Their degree will be delayed.

[shenyanggerry]

When I see references to 200 or 120 students in a writing class, that's scary. How do you find time to mark their work? I find doing a couple of one page efforts a semester a chore.

As to failing them, I tell them at the start that if they come to class and TRY, they'll learn enough (Oral English) to pass. When somebody skips most of the classes and then cries 'pass me' I usualls ignore the plea. If they didn't care all semester, why should I pity them at semester end?

Incidentally, I don't take attendance. I believe that university students should be mature enough to attend without me holding a whip over them.

[Yu]

I have 4 sections of student.... 30 students a section. It is too much.

[Steppenwolf]

[Yu]

I was told attendance is important this semester. That they administrators want the students to come to class.
That is way I counted it. For the most part it is important to consider.

[ymmv]

[Yu]

wow, thanks.... ymmv.
How can you do it teaching in the unis for 10 years.
It is my second year at this one. My second year with senior writing. My second year attempting to find what I can teach students when I am given a stupid textbook that is worth more as toliet paper than the information it contains that would be valuable to students.

The first year I gave strong talks on plagiarism. This year I worked more on crititical thinking. I truly though as senior English majors I should not need to spend time reviewing trivial things such as sentences and essays and paragraphs. I now realize that I probably should do that. It just seems insulting.


I have the students for a semeter and a half actually. I have the impression they want me to help students improve their thesis writing. I was not told what it is I can do that would actually heopl them improve.

As I know I am going to have this class again next year (and I take it willingly. I like getting the second half of this semester off....) My thinking is some of the worst students must fail.... like the 3 I gave passing grades to last year and had hoped they would appreciate that kindless, but now as they are in the same position this semester, they do not get the benefit of the doubl.

[latefordinner]

Yu:

[Brian Caulfield]

Never fail your students if you know who they are . Give them a 60 ,which is the same as a failure . Average marks in China are in the 80's . English is an art so why are we dealing with numbers ?

[Steppenwolf]

[sheeba]

Rog my friend.

You are in the wrong job.

[Yu]

Rog, I disagree.

First, I am coming to the conclusion that writing is more a reflection so of thinking. I do believe that some Chinese students are able to think, and I do believe that thinking is a skill that can be taught. As Chinese students have always had native Chinese speakers for writing teachers the focus on what is important in language is different.

First you assume Chinese students have actually been taught how to organize a paragraph in Chinese. Second you have the notion that a paragraph is a translatable ideas and that all writing is organized by paragraphs. And what is valued in a language is the same in terms of how it is written. I think Chinese teachers do not know to think in a western way so they have trouble to explain organization and structure. I am not complaining much about grammar. i am complaining about one sentence paragraphs. Students are not taught to connect their ideas with transitons.

Second, in chinese writing, the reader has the responsibility to figure out the meaning of a text. In English writing, the responsibility lies with the writer. In Chinese writing, it is considered good writing to refer to or use famous set phrases. English wriitng expects people to come up with their own words to express their own unique ideas. Westerners assume that all people have unique individual ideas and tend to focus on the differences rather than the similarities. On the other hand Chinese tend to perfer those who all have similar ideas. it is a difference between low and high context cultures.

Third, I think these things can be taught to students. The problems is coming up with a way to successfully teach it.

The suggestion to just teach students to write a CV or business letter is reasonable, but I feel it is just a poor substitute for good course content. The problems is that as a foreign teacher it is hard to recognize some of these things without experience. it takes a while to figure out what as a foreign teacher I am able to teach the students because I operate on a certain level of assumptions. Assumptions that when I am told students have been taught to write paragraphs that we agree on what a paragraph is.... I am coming to the conclusion that it is not the case. I did spend some time on CVs just because I know it is useful to students. And I heard they learn them from another source.

My students have actually done quite well with the concept of plagiarism. Instead of telling them that they cannot just copy others words. I tell them the proper way to use other's words and why we follow that pattern. Students papers have improved immensly on this aspect.

I tell students the following points:
1. we dont copy another scholars work because they have spent a long time developing their ideas. We need to give them credit for their work because building on other's ideas is how we build knowledge in the WEST. I give them a clear example of how this works.

2. I tell them that citations serve as a sort of road map. You can use citations of others to locate sources that are useful to you. They are provided as a courtesy to others.

3. There are a lot of stupid people (who use internet in the US and whose ideas you may be borrowing) if you cite them you at least show the stupid idea is not your own. It is to protect yourself.

4. Citing academic sources in your paper make it credible. It is much better to cite sources of academics to demonstrate you have widely read on your topic.

Not once do I tell them not to plagiarize because it is wrong. I tell them the reason we cite others. it is much easier to understand that concept when it is described in these terms. AND THERE has been huge improvement in this area. I remember in my college days I was just told i could not plagiarize. when I actually considered why we document sources, I found it much easier. I also teach students the importance of taking good notes from the beginning so these kind of citations are easy to add to the draft.

So I guess based on what you say, ROG, I feel you are dead wrong.
Ymmv seemed to really grasp some of the difficulties being a foreign teacher of writing, and I am truly glad to know there is at least one person out there who gets it. You, on the other hand, do not.

[Kurochan]

It's strange how our university overworks some people while others don't have much to do. The French teachers are always overwhelmed too. I don't know why they don't split up the seniors and give half to you, and half to somebody else. I remember teaching four classes of writing at SZU, and that was murder, even though they were just doing short essays.

[Yu]

Thanks