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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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 Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Because a teacher has to have authority, which implies credibility; both authority and credibility confer status. It's not a chicken-and-egg question; these qualities occur in constellations, and in the real world you can't have one without the other. If you disclaim your status, your students will question your credibility. |
Authority and credibility are subjective.
What about teacher personality and reputation?
You might find some teachers have authority, but with no strong personality, popularity, or reputation.
But, the question is: Do authority and credibility mean popularity?
I think, there are some teachers who have authority and credibility, but are not popular (in the positive or negative sense)!
There are other teachers who have no authority, but have strong reputaion and popularity!
You might find some teachers with strong personality and good persuasion without an authority.
The best example for a person without authority and has strong influence over people are the prophets. Even they do not exist with us, but still some of them have great influence on people! May be some will argue that the case with prophets is related with faith and moral issues (moral authority?).
I think, also a teacher is like a �messenger�, should have strong personality and influence over his students, but in most cases, without authority. |
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Sheikh Inal Ovar
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 1208
Location: Melo Drama School
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: rude students |
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| Well said 007 ... |
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stoth1972
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 674
Location: Seattle, Washington
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I know this is an old thread, but I'm wondering if the word "dog" got lost in the translation. He might have thought you were referring to him as a dog, which is right up there w/ 'donkey' in Arab insults. |
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eha
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 355
Location: ME
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: rude students |
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| Sheikh Inal Ovar wrote: |
| Well said 007 ... |
WHAT? 'Personality', 'Influence' without 'Authority'? DO YOU RECALL WHAT HAPPENED TO SOCRATES, COPERNICUS, BRUNO, VICO, GALILEO, who may have had strong personalities and tried to influence the development of rationality in the world --- but whose ideas challenged what passed for 'Authority' at the time?
No--- let's forget the Ayn Rand factor; if you have to fight for 'authority' in the classroom, then you're being forced to waste the energy that should be going into your teaching. It all depends on the attitudes of the 'Authorities'; if they back the students, and let each teacher fight it out for him/herself in the classroom, then there's going to be no common standard of civilized behaviour: the kids think that because Teacher A puts up with any old rubbish, Teacher B ought to do the same. Refusing 'Authority' to teachers is giving carte blanche to anarchy. (As they're finding out right now in Western educational systems)
Incidentally, another response on this thread suggested that there's no reason why teachers should have a higher status than students. Quite. I don't snap my fingers at students to get their attention; I invariably treat them with politeness. AND I EXPECT THE SAME IN RETURN. If I don't get it, I expect to be able to use at least the authority of rationality to point out that reciprocity is the basis for civilized behaviour: do unto others, etc. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: rude students |
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| eha wrote: |
| If I don't get it, I expect to be able to use at least the authority of rationality to point out that reciprocity is the basis for civilized behaviour: do unto others, etc. |
This is a Westphalia State System definition of �authority of rationality�! Which is based on Weberian sociological thinking!
What about the �authority of tradition�? I think people in the Gulf area, are used to their tribe traditions, which is based on the �authority of tradition� and not �authority of rationality� as described by Webber Max.
Weber uses the term rationality to mean bureaucracy, where he argues that the bureaucracy form is a way to organize human behaviour through time and space! Which is, in fact, a sociological explanation of the human behaviour!
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| reciprocity is the basis for civilized behaviour: |
What is a �civilised� behaviour? May be a certain behaviour in the Arab society is considered to be a non 'civilized' behaviour in a Western society, and vice versa is true!
�reciprocity is the basis for civilized behaviour� , this is also related to Western civilisation, and cannot be applied in the Islamic/Arab culture, because the two cultures are based on different concepts and definition about what constitutes �bad� and �good� behaviour!
�Reciprocity� in the Arab culture means �An eye for an eye�, which itself, according to the Western civilisation, is not permitted only under the authority of law (or autority of rationality?)!
Also, can we say that 'sympathy' is one of the basis of �civilized� society. |
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denise
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 3419
Location: finally home-ish
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| stoth1972 wrote: |
| I know this is an old thread, but I'm wondering if the word "dog" got lost in the translation. He might have thought you were referring to him as a dog, which is right up there w/ 'donkey' in Arab insults. |
I suppose it's possible. If I recall correctly, though, my words were, "I am not a dog!" Not said in anger, because I wasn't angry, but in exaggerated surprise.
For now it looks like things have calmed down, if only because the semester is over! He came into my office to give me his final assignment, I said, "thank you," and that was that.
Next semester's students will get a pre-emptive "appropriate classroom behaviour" discussion.
d |
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eha
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 355
Location: ME
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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"Reciprocity� in the Arab culture means �An eye for an eye�"
So it's ok then if I snap my fingers at my students and at any colleagues who think it's ok to do that to me? And to speak disrespectfully to anyone who addresses me disrespectfully? Great; cross-cultural communication just got a whole lot simpler!
However, it was a very highly 'civilized' person, who just happened to be an Arab and a Muslim, who once pointed out to me that the consequences
of the 'eye-for-an-eye' system are that the whole world becomes blind. |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 3:28 am Post subject: rude stuents |
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Good luck Denise! We all learn from our own experiences...Anyways...your post drew lots of interesting comments  |
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bje
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 4:06 am Post subject: |
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"Reciprocity� in the Arab culture means �An eye for an eye�"
So it's ok then if I snap my fingers at my students and at any colleagues who think it's ok to do that to me? And to speak disrespectfully to anyone who addresses me disrespectfully? Great; cross-cultural communication just got a whole lot simpler!
However, it was a very highly 'civilized' person, who just happened to be an Arab and a Muslim, who once pointed out to me that the consequences
of the 'eye-for-an-eye' system are that the whole world becomes blind. |
Well said eha. Reciprocity a la 'eye-for-an-eye' seems a retrograde conception of humanity and of behaviour toward others.
Those teachers at my college who treat students politely and with respect by and large meet with the same. One of the long-time teachers (an Egyptian guy) who is highly respected for his consistently humane, courteous and dignified behaviour (toward students, support staff and colleagues) said exactly as your friend re the 'eye-for-an-eye' mentality, maintaining that it belongs to the dark ages. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Again, what is highly 'civilised' person???
It seems Eha and Bje, miss-understood the concept of �eye for an eye�, and they took it as a literal and figurative interpretation!
I wonder if Eha and Bje are influenced by Jesus when he said to his people the following:
Jesus says:
�You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV)
Also, you will find a verse in the Torah which states ("�and you shall eliminate the evil from your midst" [Deut. 19:19]).
The concept of �an eye for an eye�, which I referred in my last post, was not meant as a vengeance or retaliation. It meant as a form of law which form the basis of principle of proportionate punishment (or punishment which fit the crime). Each country has a code of punishment, and this may differ from a constitution to another, but each one is to provide certain retaliation for an offended behavior. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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However, it was a very highly 'civilized' person, who just happened to be an Arab and a Muslim, who once pointed out to me that the consequences
of the 'eye-for-an-eye' system are that the whole world becomes blind. |
That quote is normally attributed to Gandhi. |
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bje
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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(quote) However, it was a very highly 'civilized' person, who just happened to be an Arab and a Muslim, who once pointed out to me that the consequences of the 'eye-for-an-eye' system are that the whole world becomes blind.
That quote is normally attributed to Gandhi. (quote)
You should start going to the ubiquitous 'quiz nights'. Irrespective of where it came from, it makes sense to me. Surely there's nothing wrong with others repeating it (intertextuality).
No one was implying it conferred a special wisdom on those who spoke it. The point is, in my own case, that the person I alluded to actually behaves in a humane manner, and is respected for it. He is not burdened down by the knee-jerk anal cynicism so characteristic of some Westerners in the Gulf. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| Quote: |
However, it was a very highly 'civilized' person, who just happened to be an Arab and a Muslim, who once pointed out to me that the consequences
of the 'eye-for-an-eye' system are that the whole world becomes blind. |
That quote is normally attributed to Gandhi. |
YES.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. "
Mahatma Gandhi, (attributed), Indian political and spiritual leader (1869 - 1948)
Another quote from Gandhi:
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence. " |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| 007 wrote: |
| Authority and credibility are subjective. |
Of course they are. But you don't seem to take that into account.
| Quote: |
There are other teachers who have no authority, but have strong reputaion and popularity!
You might find some teachers with strong personality and good persuasion without an authority.
The best example for a person without authority and has strong influence over people are the prophets. Even they do not exist with us, but still some of them have great influence on people! |
They have no formal or legal authority, but their popularity and credibility do give them substantial de facto authority. It's the same with teachers who are well-liked or who have a rep for being "good" teachers: Students respect and pay attention to them, which is about as close to a description of de facto authority as you can get. |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| denise wrote: |
Next semester's students will get a pre-emptive "appropriate classroom behaviour" discussion.
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They really should. You should make your expectations clear, put them in writing, discuss them in class, and get consensus on them among the students. Then you have something to point to that a misbehaving student will almost have to respect. |
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