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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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 Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| eslstudies wrote: |
Katja, please excuse the rudeness and condescension of Hunan Foreign Guy, whose contempt for those who don't speak his English variant is well documented.
Along with others, I have worked with non-native English speakers. Some weren't even white, and they held jobs in decent universities, so don't give up.
I think having a UK degree nearly completed will be a big plus for you. The fact that you have been successful in an English speaking tertiary institution indicates your ability in the language. Apply for jobs you are interested in , beginning in the semester before you wish to work, emphasising this point.
However, never agree to work for local wages, such as 1200 a month, as you suggest! You should be paid the same as other FTs where you are working.
Poster "Cheekygal" is of European background, as are vikdk and Dajiang. All have successful Chinese experience, and may be able to help you. |
Thank you SuperMario for your comments.
I was assessing an unrealistic view of a situation and explaining the limits of the attainable, SuperMario, not condescending, so you will please dispense with the personal attacks, as Mr. K. has told you repeatedly.
I told the OP that it would NOT be hard for her as a non-native speaker with limited experience, a degree and a TESOL certificate to obtain a job in China. Please, SuperMario, read what I wrote carefully in my previous posts.
I did tell the OP, however, that if she were to couple that (i.e., newbie, little experience, non-native speaker) with a rock-hard demand that her airfare to China be paid UP FRONT before she left Nwherever she will leave, then in that case, her chances of securing a position PRIOR to arriving in China would be almost nil. And I maintain that position, SuperMario, contrary to your assertions to the contrary.
The OP was asked repeatedly by various posters if indeed she meant to have the airfare paid upfront and it appeared that in the beginning that was her position and that was the position to which I directed my comments.
As TW wrote, if she arrives from afar in China, secures a position, signs a contract and all the rest, she more-than-likely will receive airfare reimbursement with a big caveat to that being employment in the not-so-honest language mills that abound here.
So thus, SuperMario, that is my position. |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Testing, testing, eslstudies here, no one else. As for "repeated warnings", I've had none! So if you can't address me by my screen name, I'll need to report your harassment.
The OP thought you were rude. I concur. Typing in BOLD PRINT is something done on forums to indicate that one is writing to someone of limited mental capacity. This is clearly condescending, and in certain cases ironic. You have previously [for example, with vikdk] attacked other posters on the basis of nationality and their NESB. References to "Third World types" and "Commonwealth types" abound. Are these not insulting? Pretending that you are purer than driven snow is a waste of time. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: Vacation |
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| Rather than lock this thread, you may assume anyone who henceforth posts an inappropriate comment, personal attack or goes off-topic will be receiving an unpaid vacation. |
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bendan
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 739
Location: North China
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| william wallace wrote: |
"Um, she is from Finland. People from that part of the world very often speak better English than many native-English-speakers."
What is that supposed to mean ? It doesn't really make any sense..sorry. |
Seems clear to me. People from that area (Scandinavia) often speak better English than people from places like Britain. If you had spent any time in both places, you would agree. |
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johnchina
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 816
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: negotiate |
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Katja, contact as many places as you can. As has been said, you'll have better luck outside Beijing, Shanghai, etc. Shenzhen might be a good bet, as HFG suggests.
Then negotiate. The Chinese love negotiating and haggling. (Generalisation, I know, but at least a grain of truth in there, I think most of you will agree.) Make sure you cover all the bases. Universities are more likely to treat you well and uphold their side of any agreement. (For regular posters, before flaming, please note that I wrote "more likely".) Universities pay a lot less, but almost always include decent accommodation. There's plenty of scope for getting private students at unis. Flights are tricky and are paid at the end of contracts (as has been said). Don't bet on getting your flight paid.
One last thing to point out is that a few Chinese students actually want to go to Finland to study. I gather there's some kind of deal where they can get into a university without paying too much. If you can check that out before you leave, maybe you can get some kind of cooperation going. Chinese unis are all into that. That might get you your free flights! |
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in_asia_bill
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 197
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| bendan wrote: |
| william wallace wrote: |
"Um, she is from Finland. People from that part of the world very often speak better English than many native-English-speakers."
What is that supposed to mean ? It doesn't really make any sense..sorry. |
Seems clear to me. People from that area (Scandinavia) often speak better English than people from places like Britain. If you had spent any time in both places, you would agree. |
What do you mean by 'better'? I've been to both places but I don't see what you mean. How can a non-native speaker be 'better' than a native speaker when, by definition, a native speaker IS the best. What a native speaker says in a language IS the language. |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| in_asia_bill wrote: |
| How can a non-native speaker be 'better' than a native speaker when, by definition, a native speaker IS the best. What a native speaker says in a language IS the language. |
I'd be interested to see this "definition".
Anyone who has taught top-flight German, Dutch and Scandinavian students in a class mixed with native speakers would disagree with the above statement. They are A students in any company.
I've said before on other threads dealing with this subject that many non-native speakers of English would, and in fact do, make more competent English teachers than many native speakers. I doubt if the Chinese will ever wake up to this though, so stand easy. |
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bendan
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 739
Location: North China
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| in_asia_bill wrote: |
How can a non-native speaker be 'better' than a native speaker when, by definition, a native speaker IS the best. What a native speaker says in a language IS the language. |
So would you say that all native speakers have the same level of English? Surely some are better than others. If you accept that, then it must open at least the possibility that some non-native speakers have a higher level of English than some native speakers.
Would all native speakers score 9 on IELTS? |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| bendan wrote: |
| in_asia_bill wrote: |
How can a non-native speaker be 'better' than a native speaker when, by definition, a native speaker IS the best. What a native speaker says in a language IS the language. |
So would you say that all native speakers have the same level of English? Surely some are better than others. If you accept that, then it must open at least the possibility that some non-native speakers have a higher level of English than some native speakers.
Would all native speakers score 9 on IELTS? |
And what relativity does a score of 9 on an IELTS have? IELTS and TOEFL are probably two of the most arcane assessments that I have ever seen. A 9 on an IELTS is nothing more than a 9 on an IELTS.
I myself speak eight foreign languages and indeed it is true, one can master a foreign language perhaps better than a "native" speaker of average education, but it is rare that one can master a foreign language better than a "native" speaker imbued with a quality education.
Accent and diction perhaps are one thing together; the fullness and nuance of the language are another. That the Dutch and Scandinavians of a superior education can master the Queen's English better than, say, a Londoner of a superior education is something that I have never seen borne out in all of my years in this field. The Dutch and Scandinavians, as others, including the Chinese, may possess the ability to quibble over the fine points of grammar, which of itself is a soft science, but when I have presented these students with a highly nuanced text, they have fared no better than the others. Generalizations, nothing more than that.
Now I believe the issue here was a question to the OP about finding a job in China with the airfare prepaid. The thread has become a little derailed. Perhaps we could return to the original question, as Mr. K. strongly suggested several postings ago.
Last edited by HunanForeignGuy on Sat May 12, 2007 4:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 2:28 am Post subject: |
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Let's see, the topic is "Jobs for non-native speakers of English", right? I've been on topic all along.
Diversions such as airfares, "TOEFEL" [sic] scores and how many languages one speaks have littered the way, however.
The OP should not be put off by negative posts. Many non-native speakers work in ESL world wide, and do an excellent job. Those of us who work in ESL in English speaking countries can testify to that. In terms of China, highlight your UK education, but don't attempt to hide your language status. Some work experience in the UK such as tutoring ESL learners, even if on a voluntary basis, would help you in your job search as well as professionally.
It is interesting and significant to note that English speaking countries don't discriminate against non-native speakers in this field, but assess applicants on their merits. Educationally backward countries do discriminate, as you are discovering. Ironic, isn't it?.
Last edited by eslstudies on Sat May 12, 2007 4:05 am; edited 2 times in total |
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bendan
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 739
Location: North China
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
And what relativity does a score of 9 on an IELTS have? IELTS and TOEFEL are probably two of the most arcane assessments that I have ever seen. A 9 on an IELTS is nothing more than a 9 on an IELTS.
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Yes, fair enough.
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I myself speak eight foreign languages and indeed it is true, one can master a foreign language perhaps better than a "native" speaker of average education, but it is rare that one can master a foreign language better than a "native" speaker imbued with a quality education.
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I agree with you on this, but I think the inference was that some native speakers do not have a quality education.
Anyway, you are right to say we are going off topic.
Unfortunately it is becoming harder for non-native speakers to secure work permits as more developed provinces and cities move to a more systematic method of dealing with applications. The OP's best bet is to look to the less developed regions, and to emphasise the UK degree. |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Bendan,
That is what those of us who are in China and are abreast of current developments are trying to tell the OP.
Your point is well-made.
All the best,
HFG |
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in_asia_bill
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 197
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: |
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ESL, I *think* I know what you mean, I really do. I'm not really a native speaker of English as such � I didn't first encounter the language until I was around 8 or 9. Up until then all I had ever heard and used was Afrikaans. I always pass for a native speaker, but quite often I don't have intuitions and feelings about language that (real, native speaker-like) native speakers have. My interpretations are often shallower or less intense than native speakers.
My G/F is Dutch and people often refuse to believe that she is not a native speaker so I fully understand what you are saying. Also, I'd agree that the Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Finns, Icelanders, and to a lesser extent, Germans, usually have excellent English language skills (and sometimes another one or two other languages to boot), but I still have to ask what you mean by 'better' than native speakers. I'm not being funny, I'm really not. I just can't see what you mean! Can you give some examples? Can you elaborate? If you say that some native speakers are better than native speakers then you must have some sort of measure, some sort of scale, and you must think that some things are good and some bad. Can you tell us what these things are? |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| Katja84 wrote: |
HunanForeignGuy: There's no reason to be rude, I had simply not considered by what means the air fare would be paid. |
This was Katja's last comment on this thread, but you guys keep talking, please!
And yeah, Bill. But on a new thread dedicated to this topic, otherwise someone will snitch to teacher.
Last edited by eslstudies on Sat May 12, 2007 5:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: Re: negotiate |
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| johnchina wrote: |
Katja, contact as many places as you can. As has been said, you'll have better luck outside Beijing, Shanghai, etc. Shenzhen might be a good bet, as HFG suggests.
One last thing to point out is that a few Chinese students actually want to go to Finland to study. I gather there's some kind of deal where they can get into a university without paying too much. If you can check that out before you leave, maybe you can get some kind of cooperation going. Chinese unis are all into that. That might get you your free flights! |
I second the first suggestion but I distance myself from the second comment.
Yes, Katia, you must submit your CV to as many would-be employers as possible; don't assume that the first fish that bites will hire you.
And you really will have to pay your own fare for coming to China; if you fulfill your contractual obligations you are likely to get refunded or get at least a one-way ticket back home (or the equivalent in yuan paid out).
As for the comment by johnchina: there is no special deal between Chinese universities and Finnish partners nor can Katia initiate any such connections.
What Chinese students love doing is...enrolling at a foreign university, and universities in the E.U. are now in an ever higher demand because they don't charge tuition fees (saves students thousands of euros or pounds).
They still have to be proficient at English (IELTS scores!), or even master a second European language. Not all universities hold class in English! |
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