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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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 Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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Same in the UK an official document - the authorities will get angry if it�s taken by another party (on grounds of copying/falsification - that kind of stuff0 - but they don't blow a fuse at coffee stains or dog-ears!!!!!
PS you can also rip a pound note up in a police station back home - sending the queen into a thousand bits - if you chuck that mess on the floor you'll only get arrested for littering: loll: |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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For all intents and purposes the FEC is issued for the foreign teacher not for the school. Rather than arguing about whether the teacher has the right to keep their own FEC in hand during the validity period it might be best to ask what reason does the school have to hold it?
I think james s is spot on. The school wants to hold it for reasons of power and also for their convenience. I don't think that this makes them a bad school, but it does not help the foreign teacher either.
OP, you might never need to use the FEC but somebody needs to hold onto it and I can't see why that shouldn't be you. In the best case scenario it will sit in your desk drawer unused until you complete your contract and give it back, in the worst case scenario something may happen for which you need to produce it. The last thing you want is to have to chase it up from the school when you really need it! |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| For all intents and purposes the FEC is issued for the foreign teacher not for the school. |
This is bad information, it is issued to the school and it is their property to do with as they seem fit. The reason a school wants to keep it is they are bound to return it to the convening authority. Why get into it with your school on the advice of those who have nothing invested in your situation or are posting here to promote a website. If you don't need it, then why cause the school trouble when it will only label you as "difficult". a relationship with a school is a balancing act between what they think and what you think. Don't let Clark or anyone else sway your decision so as to put you in the "dog house" with your school. |
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hairuo
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 473
Location: Somewhere in China
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| The US Embassy told me that Bank of China should not write anything in my passport, it is not a document for banking purposes. So after that, I took a copy of my passport and visa when I went into the bank. My passport isnt dogearred or coffee stained yet.....so dont know what they would say. FEC certificates are held by the school I where presently teach, and it does not even let the teachers have them for any reason. I needed mine when the Panyu police asked me for it when I registered as living here.... but the school only gave me a copy. I gave that to the police and they seemed happy. Ironically, I have my certificates from my previous two schools. So like everything else in China....it depends where you are and how much is enforced. |
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lionheartuk
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Guangdong
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| One school I was at wanted to keep my FEC but when I showed them an email I had sent and the answer I had received from S.A.F.E.A the school were obliged to let me keep the certificate. In other words the FEC is mine to keep until I leave and is not to be kept by the the school. I did return it to the school when I left. All the other schools have given me the certificate/booklet. |
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johnchina
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 816
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 7:11 am Post subject: none |
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Sorry, vikdk, but Steppenwolf is correct. Passports do belong to the issuing entity. Page 2 (Notes) of my UK passport issued in China a coupla years ago clearly states "6. Caution. This passport remains the property of Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and may be withdrawn at any time. It should not be tampered with ..."
However, I doubt that accidentally sticking your passport in with the washing and getting it messed up is a major crime. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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I also totally agree with step on the point it belongs to the govt. - if you read my posts I've never disputed that fact � I�m just pulling his leg about how his national entity got all possesive about steps passport when it got damaged - you know confiscating it for his for dog-ears - you ever heard of that back home. After all where is the bit on that front page that says -
and her majesties government don't want no nasty stains or creases in this book - 'cause it's ours and not yours 
No I'm afraid the reality back home is - after accidental damage that invalidates the document for practical use - you are allowed to change your passport (without being put in dungeons and interoggated on what type of coffee made that brown stain) - which means paying for a new  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| OGFT wrote: |
| This is bad information, it is issued to the school and it is their property to do with as they seem fit. |
I am not sure why you came on so strong on this issue OGFT but I disagree with your opinion here and, judging by the posts of others in this thread, I am not the only one. The FEC is issued to you on behalf of the school.
| OGFT wrote: |
| The reason a school wants to keep it is they are bound to return it to the convening authority. |
And they are welcome to collect it back from the teacher toward the end of the contract. Afterall it is not much use to the foreign teacher once the contract is complete anyway. It doesn't make much sense for them to insist on keeping it in a draw at the school until then unless there are other reasons that they may want to hold onto it.
| OGFT wrote: |
| If you don't need it, then why cause the school trouble when it will only label you as "difficult". |
Asking for what is rightly yours is hardly causing trouble. The school's attitude toward you depends upon how you deal with the situation not whether you choose to deal with it or not, and putting your head in the sand is not always the best thing to do.
Even by your own admission the school doesn't need the FEC until you leave. As we have seen in this thread there are cases where the foreign teacher may be asked to produce it during the term of the contract. It is a no brainer to me - why let the school keep it when you can hold onto it yourself! And there is no reason that a simple and reasonable request should escalate beyond that. |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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I just think this is bad information. The FEC is the property of the school and if they want it, why cause a problem. It is of little use to the FT and insisting that the school leave it with the FT against their wishes is not smart. These books are next to useless and if lost, the holder has a great deal of work to do to satisfy the government.
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| Even by your own admission the school doesn't need the FEC until you leave. |
What are you talking about. The school can be ask to produce these at any time and I never made the statement above.
So go ahead and make a mountain out of a mole hill if you want. It will yield little and gain you the identity of someone who makes trouble for your employer. |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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OK, I haven't waded through all of this thread but
as a general modus operandi most schools give the FECs to the FTs for the duration of the contract.
The FEC is actually the property of the employer, and it says so, on either the front cover or back cover pages. The only time that the FEC need be returned to the school is upon termination or departure.
Next depending upon the province some schools will try to get away with holding the FEC but in most provinces that is not legal. Insist upon it.
Next the school where I am now tried the same stunt. They held onto it for most of the year but I finally managed to get it but what a battle that was. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: |
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well, i guess the below quote from one might shed some light to the discussion
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| So like everything else in China....it depends where you are and how much is enforced. |
a sad truth of one country with apparently two systems as they say 
Peace to China and China
and
cheers and beers to all of our valuable booklets issued by the peoples republic  |
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james s
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 676
Location: Raincity
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: |
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...
Last edited by james s on Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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well james shed some light on this one and i am sure than some of us'll appreciate it
i hope the passport talk's clear for everyone by now
tough comparing FECs  to passports .. then, they aren't much of an ID, since our residency permits serve that purpose and those passports too
well, who knows what goes on in a chinese government office
they can't standardize much, can they?
china is a huge country with many big as well as small government offices and only the officers know what they want
now, the "cancellation order on Z visa" is a rather interesting point, james...sounds like you are connecting it to the FEC, but sorry if i am wrong there
yes, that guanxi
contextualizing this discussion, FECs are our documents and we shall keep 'em ... we are the experts on the language and the document proves it
peace to FECs, PRC as well as OGFT
and
cheers and beers to 100% in China
_____________________________________________________________
i didn't want my pic to look so RED, but they said it was the standard |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| james s wrote: |
Lets contextualize this discussion:
Your passport is the property of the government of your country, not you, and definitely not your employer in America. AND you hold it and are responsible for it.
The FEC is the property of the PRC and you are the holder of this card and are to use it for identification purposes should the need arise until you give it back when your contractually agreed period is up.
It is not the property of the school. I am sure of this. 100%. I have held every one issued to me. Once I had an employer try to hold it from me and I replied that it was illegal. They did not deny the illegality, and returned it to its rightful person.
The control that it can give them: It can put a cancellation order on your Z visa(though I do not know how-please do not copy this and degrade this statement. I state I do not know how because I do not know how guanxi with all of its finer points works). This occured to 3 former colleagues of mine.
What exactly a "cancellation order" is, however, is merely mumbo jumbo put forward by the owner of the former company/school. It was enough to fright the 3 into leaving country.
My best advice: Do not listen to all of the others talk about their passports. The FEC is a totally different document and mine (FEC booklet, not passport), as well as yours says that it is used as identification by the person named in it (YOU). NOT THE SCHOOL.
Step and vidikd: A new page for you two? I have never seen you against one another! |
James,
Your information is slightly erroneous.
Read the front two page covers of the Foreign Expert Certificate carefully.
It is issued to the holder on BEHALF of the institution at which the holder is employed. It is the property of the INSTITUTION and not of the holder. That is a rather serious mistake on your part. It is given to the holder to carry in the same form and manner that a United States passport is issued to the bearer but just as the passport remains the property of the United States Government, the Foreign Expert Certificate ultimately remains the property of the institution that so requested its issuance. You will see this clearly below as I have set forth the relevant portion of the Act for you.
What follows is an English-language translation of the Act Concerning Issuance and Return of Foreign Expert Certificates as approved by the People's Congress in 2003 (and not changed nor amended to date):
Article 12 The valid period since the issuance of Foreign Expert Certificate is not longer than one year. Foreign experts shall go through procedures to extend the period of Foreign Expert Certificate in the organs in charge of identification for foreign experts when one year expired. Failure to obtain Foreign Expert Certificate in time means loss of its validity. Should foreign experts change their employers during their stay in China, they shall hand in their previous certificates to the employer that secured such Foreign Expert Certificate on their and cause a new application for a Foreign Expert Certificate to be filed in the issuing authority in the region where the new employer is situated.
As for the "guanxi" and blocking of new work authorization permits as you mention, this can and does happen but it is as far from frequent as perhaps some might determine from reading your post. In most cases, unless there was a felonious incident committed by a foreign teacher, it suffices to change provinces to vacate the entire matter. |
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james s
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 676
Location: Raincity
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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...
Last edited by james s on Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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