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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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 Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| james s wrote: |
| Quit bending and distorting facts. |
To cross-reference, and for further evidence of this, revisit the Ugly FT Situation thread, as well as Jobs for non native speakers P3.
This person needs to be made more accountable. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| Should foreign experts change their employers during their stay in China, they shall hand in their previous certificates to the employer that secured such Foreign Expert Certificate on their and cause a new application for a Foreign Expert Certificate to be filed in the issuing authority in the region where the new employer is situated. |
The very fact that the regulations refer to the fact that the foreign teacher should hand the documents back to the school when they leave really suggests that the intention is for the foreign teacher to hold such documents during their time there. HFG you seem to have proved your own point wrong here!
As for the argument as to who 'owns' the FEC well I guess that the answer is neither the foreign teacher nor the school - it is the government of China. As to the question as to who should hold the document given the choice between the school and the foreign teacher well quite clearly the answer is the foreign teacher.
However if you as an individual feel happier to let the school hold the FEC for you that is okay also and is not likely to cause you huge problems during your stay in China. |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| It is pretty simple. Once upon a time this book served a purpose for which it is no l0onger needed. The school, however is still expected to turn over the books. It means little to the FT but means a lot in a procedures manor to the school. Don't be foolish and fight a battle that has nothing to gain. |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| Should foreign experts change their employers during their stay in China, they shall hand in their previous certificates to the employer that secured such Foreign Expert Certificate on their and cause a new application for a Foreign Expert Certificate to be filed in the issuing authority in the region where the new employer is situated. |
The very fact that the regulations refer to the fact that the foreign teacher should hand the documents back to the school when they leave really suggests that the intention is for the foreign teacher to hold such documents during their time there. HFG you seem to have proved your own point wrong here!
As for the argument as to who 'owns' the FEC well I guess that the answer is neither the foreign teacher nor the school - it is the government of China. As to the question as to who should hold the document given the choice between the school and the foreign teacher well quite clearly the answer is the foreign teacher.
However if you as an individual feel happier to let the school hold the FEC for you that is okay also and is not likely to cause you huge problems during your stay in China. |
Listen, Clark, you are completely wrong here. Once again. Are you in China? Have you ever been in China or are you just writing from the rebellious little island off the coast?
In some provinces, your letter of release will need to make mention of the fact that your FEC was returned to the school that you have left in order for the FEB to issue a new FEC. If you do NOT return the FEC and you remain in-province on your next job, your request for a new FEC can easily be denied. Zheijiang is one province among others that sticks to this rule. Guangdong is abiding by this rule to an increasing degree.
Sichuan is the same.
Next, it is the property of the employer and not of the employer. But Clark, apparently since you are the voice of the Chinese Government in your messages, I will defer to you (at least here). I suggest that everyone follow Clark's advice all the time and in every matter and then see where that lands you. |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| eslstudies wrote: |
| james s wrote: |
| Quit bending and distorting facts. |
To cross-reference, and for further evidence of this, revisit the Ugly FT Situation thread, as well as Jobs for non native speakers P3.
This person needs to be made more accountable. |
I agree with you. You absolutely do need to more accountable, more open, more transparent and more honest. At least, thank God, you are not in China any more although the reasons for your precipitated departure remain officially unclear. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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OGFT I do not disagree that it is not worth getting into a huge dispute with your school about as at the end of the day it is not going to be a huge problem either way. As I pointed out earlier however asking for the FEC and getting into a dispute with your school over the FEC are two totally different things that you seem to be grouping in together. Given the choice I would hold the FEC, but others may choose differently.
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| Listen, Clark, you are completely wrong here. |
Please point out where I am wrong. Given the choice between who holds the FEC it seems quite clear that it is in the foreign teachers best interests to hold onto it during the course of the contract even if he or she is lucky enough to never need it. Given the question about who should hold onto the FEC during the term of the contract - I think quite clearly the answer is the foreign teacher. How is that wrong?
Perhaps you would also like to explain why you seem to believe that the FEC should be held by the school when the legislation that you posted makes specific reference to the fact that the teacher should hand the FEC back to the school before they leave.
Also HFG I am curious about something. You seem to be suggesting that the FEC is the property of the school and that the foreign teacher has no right to it. In your earlier post you mention that you yourself got into a huge dispute with a school about giving the FEC to you. I assume that in the end you got the FEC so what was the basis for your dispute if the FEC is really the property of the school as you claim? Can you explain that ambiguity for me?
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| Once again. Are you in China? Have you ever been in China or are you just writing from the rebellious little island off the coast? |
And once again - yes I am, and yes I have, not that this validates nor invalidates my point. I could be on the moon and still be correct (or incorrect) so let's concentrate on the post shall we and not the person making the post!!
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| In some provinces, your letter of release will need to make mention of the fact that your FEC was returned to the school that you have left in order for the FEB to issue a new FEC. If you do NOT return the FEC and you remain in-province on your next job, your request for a new FEC can easily be denied. |
HFG I have no idea why you are going off topic here as no one is discussing the above. It is clear that the FEC should be handed back to the authorities before the foreign teachers leaves their employ.
The discussion here is solely about who should hold the FEC during the term of the foreign teachers employ. I believe that the foreign teacher is best off holding it themselves and the text that you posted from the legislation seems to support that.
| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
| Next, it is the property of the employer and not of the employer. |
What? |
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eslstudies
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 1061
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| HunanForeignGuy wrote: |
I agree with you. You absolutely do need to more accountable, more open, more transparent and more honest. At least, thank God, you are not in China any more although the reasons for your precipitated departure remain officially unclear. |
A feeble flamebait. Why don't you try discussing your slander of the Canadian "girl" whom you "helped", on the Ugly FT situation thread? She actually changed her user name because you freaked her out, but she's back looking to talk to you. |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| And once again - yes I am, and yes I have, not that this validates nor invalidates my point. I could be on the moon and still be correct (or incorrect) so let's concentrate on the post shall we and not the person making the post!! |
The point here is if your giving advice without real experience, and from where I set this may well be the case, the advice you give is not valuable and may cause more problems than is needed. To start a fight with the school over who has the right to hold a useless book is just not smart.. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| OGFT wrote: |
| The point here is if your giving advice without real experience, |
With any respect that may be due, how could you possibly know whether I have personal experience in regards to this or not? Do you know me? I doubt it, so that means that you are assuming this to be the case. For what it is worth I do have relevant experience here so where does that leave your statement above? Incorrect that's where!
Just as your claim that the FEC is the property of the school is incorrect even though you jumped into the thread with both feet on that issue too.
If you deal with disagreements at your school the same way that you deal with disagreements here then I am not surprised that you are wary of discussing matters with your school as I can see how things could easily escalate to a dispute with you.
| OGFT wrote: |
| the advice you give is not valuable and may cause more problems than is needed. To start a fight with the school over who has the right to hold a useless book is just not smart.. |
Where did I advise that one should start a fight with a school over anything? I didn't. OGFT are you aware that this is a difference between asking for something and getting into a dispute over it?
Also, perhaps you would like to direct us all to some official statement that shows that it is the right or obligation of the school to hold the foreign teacher's FEC during the term of the contract?
If you, or anyone else for that matter, chooses not to get your FEC from your school then that is your right and I certainly don't have a problem with that. The OP seems concerned about whether it is the correct process to follow and I have given my opinion about that.
For you to continue to suggest that a teacher request for the FEC is unreasonable and will lead to a dispute with the school is just silly. The way that you handle the problem determines how things go, not the fact that you raise the problem in the first place. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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tut tut HFG - Condoleeza won't like reading this one -
| Quote: |
| or are you just writing from the rebellious little island off the coast? |
Don't you know where Clark is based - surely one of your "contacts" has run into him  |
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james s
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 676
Location: Raincity
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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...
Last edited by james s on Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:34 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Also, perhaps you would like to direct us all to some official statement that shows that it is the right or obligation of the school to hold the foreign teacher's FEC during the term of the contract? |
I think this is the problem with your advice. You rely on what you read rather than what is practical. Yes, I think by taking your advice the FT will place himself at odds with the management of the school and be seen as difficult. For what. So he can assert a so called right, that no one, especially you, can ascertain for certain. This is just not wise advice. No I cannot give the quote you so highly value, but I can tell you from experience that you do not really need to hold this book and if you start this kind of demanding behavior over something that is useless to the FT in most cases, you may have other problems down the road. It may not be fair or just, but a school can characterise your behaviour as negative it may effect some other form of payment or benefit. Just play it smart and don't push for what is not important. |
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HunanForeignGuy
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 989
Location: Shanghai, PRC
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| OGFT wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Also, perhaps you would like to direct us all to some official statement that shows that it is the right or obligation of the school to hold the foreign teacher's FEC during the term of the contract? |
I think this is the problem with your advice. You rely on what you read rather than what is practical. Yes, I think by taking your advice the FT will place himself at odds with the management of the school and be seen as difficult. For what. So he can assert a so called right, that no one, especially you, can ascertain for certain. This is just not wise advice. No I cannot give the quote you so highly value, but I can tell you from experience that you do not really need to hold this book and if you start this kind of demanding behavior over something that is useless to the FT in most cases, you may have other problems down the road. It may not be fair or just, but a school can characterise your behaviour as negative it may effect some other form of payment or benefit. Just play it smart and don't push for what is not important. |
Well said OGFT. In the past when I first joined this Board, I came upon some advice that Clark had given in this respect and I followed it and it caused me no end of problems. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Well said OGFT. In the past when I first joined this Board, I came upon some advice that Clark had given in this respect and I followed it and it caused me no end of problems. |
My two favorite posters in a tiff  - what advice was this  |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:05 am Post subject: |
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there's some connection in between Clark and vikdk, but i haven't figured it out yet ...my favorite two posters too 
since vikdk has not offered an "advice" in his last post, i didn't try myself either
peace to our LEFTs as well as RIGHTs with all the fingers on working
and
cheers and beers to the knowledge that we offer on our lovely forums 
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i love emoticons and i am proud of it  |
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