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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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 Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:12 am Post subject: |
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NickD thanks for coming out and dispelling the notion that it was a recruiter rather than what it really is. It's quite scary how some members of this forum are willing to run with their suspicions without checking their facts.
I think that we can probably all agree that the best way to find a good job in China is to contact the teacher/s that have worked or do work there and get recommendations. It is sad that when those recommendations come through that they are viewed with such distrust that they are mocked and criticized as being more than what they seem.
Of course I am aware that some recruiters are not direct with the fact that they are recruiters, and there is obviously the possibility that a foreign teacher trying to get out of a contract may just drag someone else in. But they would be the exceptions not the rule.
Exercising due dilligence is smart, but overall I would have to say that if anyone is that suspicious and distrustful of both the Chinese staff at schools and the foreign teachers that work there then perhaps that may be an indication that staying home could be best option for all concerned. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| It is sad that when those recommendations come through that they are viewed with such distrust that they are mocked and criticized as being more than what they seem. |
And where does this distrust emanate from - well the countless number of horror stories that have emerged about the dealings of recruiters and employers in China. Do you want me to start reposting some of these Clark - just to show newbies why the vets here are so wary and distrustful!!!!! (by the way newbies Clark helps run a site that is very involved in recruiting - which kinda explains his stance)
And as for mocking - well trying to convince a newbie to take a lowly 5,000/month when a figure of 7,000 is also used in the job offer - well if that's not mocking, what is????
By the way my hat tasted a little stringy - next time I'm going to boil not micro  |
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Sonnibarger
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 320
Location: Wuhan
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
Exercising due dilligence is smart, but overall I would have to say that if anyone is that suspicious and distrustful of both the Chinese staff at schools and the foreign teachers that work there then perhaps that may be an indication that staying home could be best option for all concerned. |
I fail to see how taking steps toward finding suitable employment is an indication that I should stay home. I will be suspicious until I get my first paycheck. When traveling alone u have to look out for #1. I don�t think I�m doomed to fail because I�m careful. |
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Girl Scout
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 525
Location: Inbetween worlds
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| There are no garuntees here. Even after you get you first paycheck. If you're not suspicious of every request made, you're going to get walked on. The first time you say yes to what seems like a simple innocent request can tie you into an unwanted situation for months. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| u have to look out for #1. |
Exactly what anyone trying to recruit you would say of themselves - that�s why - because their trade is an unregulated free-for-all - so many facts they give out turn out to be misrepresentations of the real conditions that are found in this market  |
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Brian Caulfield
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 1247
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: |
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It's not the first pay check I worry about but the last and the bonus . I have yet not to get burned here and all the while I am being told about what a wonderful teacher I am . And there is nothing you can do .
But people PMing people about jobs is not bad. The best jobs are not advertised . You must be warry of schools that advertise for 6 teachers every year . These schools sweep clean every year . They don't want last years teachers telling the new teachers about their bad experiences . |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Sonnibarger wrote: |
| I fail to see how taking steps toward finding suitable employment is an indication that I should stay home. I will be suspicious until I get my first paycheck. When traveling alone u have to look out for #1. I don�t think I�m doomed to fail because I�m careful. |
It's funny that you mention looking after No.1 as I too believe in this concept and have stated as much before on this forum.
My earlier comments were not particularly aimed at you but at the concept that some people develop an idea that everybody here is out to cheat them - the Chinese some days, fellow foreign teachers other days.
While I do agree with the concept of expecting the worst from others as you will then likely be pleasantly surprised, I do feel that some people take this too far and you can see that in the overall negativity of their posts here. This negativity begets further negativity and I can't help but think that these individuals are really doing themselves a disservice by always concentrating on the negative.
Being careful is a good thing, but moving to a country where you are unduly suspicious of the motives of everyone around you is not. I am not suggesting that this applies to you Sonnibarger as I think that your original enquiry was a reasonable one. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| While I do agree with the concept of expecting the worst from others as you will then likely be pleasantly surprised |
The norms of the employer/employee relationship that are found in China always come as a surprise - to call that pleasant seems to be putting a very positive spin on things 
After all newbies just read these forums - and read about some of those surprises that are found here  |
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Sonnibarger
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 320
Location: Wuhan
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for clearing it up. Reading through many posts here on Dave�s has got my guard up. I have been trying to fact check as much as possible but sometimes that brings more questions then answers. I was researching a recruitment agency on Dave�s, and I noticed 1 poster (not NickD) was always in defense of them. I searched all his previous posts and found that 90% were defending the Agency. I know that is far from the norm, but still a little disconcerting. At the end of the day I will worry about a job now, and trust later  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| Sonnibarger wrote: |
| I was researching a recruitment agency on Dave�s, and I noticed 1 poster (not NickD) was always in defense of them. I searched all his previous posts and found that 90% were defending the Agency. |
You may be right that the individual has a hidden agenda in saying nice things about that company, but then perhaps they are just someone who had a good experience with them and really believes that they are a good company. You could also note the opposite to be true in cases where an individual comes here to bad mouth a company in that a search of their posts will show that 90% are attacking that company. Again - a hidden agenda? Maybe.
Those with the inherently negative attitudes will automatically conclude that it is just another scam and thereby avoid that company. In doing so they may have just saved themselves a lot of heartache, or they could be walking away from an otherwise very good job. They will never know as their bias prevents them from ever knowing the truth! And this is what I was referring to earlier as being the sort of individuals that are probably not too well suited to China.
I would think a more reasonable approach would be to take note of your concerns and then do more research elsewhere to confirm whether your suspicions are valid or not. If it is as good a company as that person makes it out to be then there must be some support for this claim out there from others. If you find confirmation then that can be reassuring.
Daves is a great site but don't limit your research to this site only. Try www.google.com as this will get you into other sites with pertinent information. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| a hidden agenda? Maybe |
To try and discover more about a poster's agenda - then I think it's a good idea to ask that poster what their relationship is with teaching English in China -
- are they an ordinary FT?
- do they hold some managerial position with a teaching company?
- are they in any way connected with enterprises that aid/advertise recruiting?
- are they in way connected with enterprises that generate money from recruiting?
This is called research - and also helps us to see why certain may posters spin certain topics in certain directions - for example they often tell us this kind of stuff -
- low pay is enough to live on
- you can fall back on the Chinese authorities in times of job conflict
- in a practical sense, contracts are just as legal and binding in China with regard to the employer as the employee
- you don't need any qualification to do an FT job in China
- only those who complain ever post
In my research I ask these type of posters if they are ordinary FT's - to find out if they live on those small 5000/month type wages they tell us are quite adequate - to find out if they ever have to resort to going to the authorities in times on contract breach - and why they tell newbies that no qualification is necessary when the vets are always writing over how complicated and difficult it is to maintain high and effective standards at this job. This type of poster then write that I'm only a complainer and whiner - but they still don't tell me or you what they do in China - revealing their own I'm a success in China story. I wonder why � you got any ideas on that Clark  |
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Sinko
Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| In my research I ask these type of posters if they are ordinary FT's - to find out if they live on those small 5000/month type wages they tell us are quite adequate - to find out if they ever have to resort to going to the authorities in times on contract breach - and why they tell newbies that no qualification is necessary when the vets are always writing over how complicated and difficult it is to maintain high and effective standards at this job. |
Gee, Vikuk, you have only been here 3 days with 6 posts, how did you manage to do that?
There is another poster, Vik, who has a very similar writing style as you and has a similar disposition towards Clark as you (you twin brother maybe?  ). Anyway, a lot of the times Clark posts something, along come this bloke asking the same questions with the same theme. Much like your post Vik. It seems like he is stalking him. I continue to wonder if this bloke has a hidden aganda himself. Maybe he is a recruiter himself, who feels Clark is annoyingly infiltrating his territory. Maybe he likes to change his identity sometimes to keep himself "hidden".
Look Vik, I could be wrong. But what I do wish to state that I am getting a bit sick and tired of his monotonous posts. I don't agree with Clark on everything he posts, but he has a right to give his point of view. This bloke can criticise Clark's posts like the others. Fine. You, or I, can do the same. But to continuously bombard the guy with censure as frequently as he does....get over it!!!!
An FT recruitment business does not have to be run by anyone with foreign teacher experience. It not a prequisite to operating this business. As long as the person has a lot of knowledge, good managerial and organisational skills and a keenness and dedication to run the company. Has Bernie Ecclestone raced a Formula 1 car? Has Joe Bloggs, that good foreign teacher from Chengdu, ever taught english before? |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| There is another poster, Vik, who has a very similar writing style as you and has a similar disposition towards Clark |
You never heard of cloning
And dearest Sinko - your fine posts doesn't really answer the questions I pose in mine - it just spins it in that direction that makes this forum a prime site for recruiter action - after all, from reading your post, you obviously seem to believe that a certain poster is a recruiter.
You want the forum to be heavily influenced by recruitment spin that leads the newbie into thinking that all is milk and honey out here - and that anyone can do this job as long as they're white Maybe the best possible results of my kind of postings is that a recruiter who was tempted to talk this job up beyond the limits of the truth - now knows that their posts should be written with a view to the real situation out here - since anything less would attract derision from those who have actual experience of this job market!!!!
And by the way - why do some posters refuse to tell us what they do in China - why is their right to hide their connection to the recruiting industry so important
As for repetition - well newbies, the potential victims in this game, are turning up all the time. They don't trawl through the archives - so forgive me vets - but the message does have to given out a lot - a warning to be extra careful. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Sinko wrote: |
| Anyway, a lot of the times Clark posts something, along come this bloke asking the same questions with the same theme. Much like your post Vik. It seems like he is stalking him. I continue to wonder if this bloke has a hidden aganda himself. Maybe he is a recruiter himself, who feels Clark is annoyingly infiltrating his territory. |
Good to see that I am not the only one who sees the stalking nature of some posts on this forum!!
For the record I am not a recruiter nor have I ever been so there is no danger of me infiltrating the territory of any recruiter. The only threat that I pose to a recruiter is that the site I am involved with may not be very supportive of their business practices if they are not doing the right thing by foreign teachers.
The suggestion that I am anything more than just another foreign teacher is just a smokescreen thrown up by some individuals on this forum to try and hide behind the fact that they cannot complete a discussion. If I were a recruiter they would have proved this by now but they can't as it is impossible to prove something that is not true!
All of this is why I feel so strongly about my earlier point about not coming to China if you really feel that you can't trust anyone. I know that I have no hidden agenda and yet I see time and time again unfounded suggestions to the contrary - that remain unproven as the people who make the suggestion have no interest in the 'real' truth. I have also seen this happen to others who were obviously not doing anything more than offering an opinion that the negative nellies among us don't agree with. The sender of the PM that this thread is about for example.
I support discussion, and that is what this place is for. But to call into question every individual who you don't agree with by suggesting (but never proving) things about them is counter productive to the declared aims of these individuals - the truth!! |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| newbies - smokescreens and counter smokescreens - just watch out - trust in your employer can be a difficult concept to believe in when working in China |
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