Job Discussion Forums

FGT · Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 762 Location: Turkey

Yes, shmooj, I think you've hit the nail on the head. As teachers we have to have a function in mind when we enter the classroom and give our students an environment in which to explore the lexis of the day. Lots of examples. A clear situation in which the language we are teaching is the only language applicable.

We can then exploit time lines etc to provide a visual cue (after training students in the conventions employed in time lines, I'm a great believer in the visual). I would also advocate extensive use of concept check questions, eg:

"I've been to Paris"
ccq: Do you know when I went?
ccq: Might I go again?
ccq: Is it real or imaginary? etc

The concept check questions become the framework for the rule which the students can, themselves, create. The teacher can then endorse it but the students won't learn if it's arbitrarily imposed.

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

I liiiiiike that FGT. CCQs... mmmm... I'm going to try them out. Is that your idea or have you read a book I haven't?

FGT · Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 762 Location: Turkey

Hi, Shmooj. Glad you like ccqs. Really can't remember where I came across them but I'm sure they were intrinsic to my CELTA course.

One book I recommend is "Teaching Tenses" by Rosemary Aitken. Good for newbie teachers to learn the grammar themselves and gives teaching ideas, photocopiable pages and LOTS on timelines.

johnslat · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:40 am Post subject: Speaking of the present perfect

Dear shmooj,
Hmm, you know - it just occurred to me. Shouldn't your "tag line":

"... it's the best thing that ever happened to anybody..."

be

"... it's the best thing that's ever happened to anybody..."?

Regards,
John

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

Now this is interesting. I take your point John but surely you have no ground on which to make it when language must, to convey meaning, be couched in context. Seeing as how grammar is simply a tool or meaning, how can you properly critique grammar without any knowledge of context?

These are the rocks, I believe, on which many a grammarian's ship is wrecked...

Being creative with grammar in order to express something that is almost inexpressible has been quite common in historical writing. For an example from the same department as my signature, I refer you to the "ungrammatical" words of Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I am."

So, did Jesus, in laying aside the glory of heaven to take on mortal flesh, thereby acquire a problem with grammar?

johnslat · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:32 pm Post subject: Exceptions are made for Divinity

Dear shmooj,
Granted - there are ALWAYS "exceptions" - but given your example, if we exclude the possibility that you're an incarnation of Divinity, I believe that, even with the limited context given by your "tag line", the present perfect tense is required. Going back to your example:

"Before Abraham was, I am".

the unusual tense sequence does convey a special meaning, dictated by
the extraordinary circumstances of the Speaker. In the case of your "tag line", however -

"... it's the best thing that ever happened to anybody..."

all past time (ever happened) is connected to the present (is), thus mandating, I'd say, the use of the present perfect simple. However, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. Would you mind telling me what you're trying to express by the - as I see it - unorthodox usage of the past tense ("happened") that would otherwise be "almost inexpressible"?
Regards,
John

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

Sure...

The best thing that ever happened was, IMO, the crucifixion. Now, depending on your view of theology, you may be able to see my point when I say that it was not only Jesus who died on that cross but also every one of us. Therefore, the "twisted" grammar reflects the fact that although the event was a one off historical event in terms of our view of it, it also impacted every soul that had ever, or would ever live at that same time. IOW, it happened to anybody who ever lived not now but then despite the fact that they had not yet been born. Bear with my for the purpose of the grammar. We can leave the theology aside for that sake.

Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the tense that connects infinity with the present. Hey, how about the perfectly present infinitive Wink

johnslat · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:03 pm Post subject: Divine grammar

Dear shmooj,
Whoa, this may open up a whole new "sub-section" in grammar: the Divine tense. However, I'm a tad dubious about your "theology". You wrote -

". . . that it was not only Jesus who died on that cross but also every one of us. "

I've always been under the impression that, according to the "usual" Christian interpretation, Jesus died on the cross FOR our sins. He (alone) was the "sacrifice"; we were/are/will be the beneficiaries.
Hmm, another possible problem: I assume only those who agree with this theology would be able to use this "exceptional tense"; for those of other faiths or for agnostics / theists / atheists, their beliefs (or lack of them) would preclude their employing it (well, at least in the Christian context).
Regards,
John

johnslat · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:10 pm Post subject: Adam's fall

Dear shmooj,
You know - come to think on it, the line might well work if it were applied to Adam's fall rather than to the crucifixion.

http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/luth_hymnal/tlh369.htm

http://www.the-highway.com/fall_Sproul.html

Regards,
John

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

Bait offered. None taken. As I said, I am not willing to be drawn on the theology. You wanna talk grammar, I'll play. Otherwise... game over.

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

don't quit smooj I was enjoying your tit for tat. didn't Jesus speak armaic though?

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK