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Jon Taylor
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 238
Location: Tokyo
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 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| nonsmoker wrote: |
| Whatever you do, never leave your country without the proper visa. If the employer states that they need you ASAP, just tell them the truth. Tell them that you would rather not work illegally and have to go through the hassle of worrying about immigration. Tell them you'd rather focus your energy on teaching. If it's a good company, they'll understand and work with you. |
All the times I have hired I have requested the staff arrive into Japan and their visa's will be processed in a matter of days.
I also request a copy of their original degree certificates as I require them for their eligibility certificates. These are sent prior to them arriving.
Once they arrive their visa's are processed in a matter of days.
This procedure is considerably quicker and is used by many of the 'smaller' companies. Most of the better jobs available in Japan are through the smaller companies.
There has to be an element of trust on both sides but I think it's naive to suggest that you have to have your visa upon entry to the country and it will also rule you out when it comes to finding a good position.
Why are you all so negative about companies that use this procedure. It's not illegal. The person enters on a tourist visa and it's so simple to change that to another type.
Many companies work on short time scales when it comes to recruitment and it's not feasable to wait for the applicant to process their visa in their own country.
As regards ALS, I have a friend who manages at a school and they say that it's great. The teachers I have spoken to have never had a bad word to say about it.
Think it's a pretty standard contract in terms of pay and housing. |
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DNK
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 236
Location: the South
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Argh, retype...
I've also heard very little negative feedback about the company, and wouldn't classify them as exceptionally shady by any means. So I'm not so worried about some of the more egregious violations of non-wv teachers I've heard. At the same time, I understand it's an iffy situation.
I'm having problems getting definitive answers on visa issues, and searching isn't helping much, due to an overabundance of information that isn't very pertinent. It was my understanding that working without a visa, even if going through the process, was illegal.
Also, a point they made was that the process could not be started before I had arrived, since it would have to end where it began (in or outside the country). Not sure about that one, either.
Last edited by DNK on Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ohahakehte
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 128
Location: japan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| nonsmoker wrote: |
| Do yourself a favor and don't rush into taking such a huge step. Make sure all your ducks are in a row before going to Japan because you might regret it otherwise. |
obviously its preferable to get full sponsorship before you get to japan but considering how many people dont get that before they come and who end up getting a full visa once theyre here and stay for a long time - is it that big of a deal? and its not just for teaching jobs either. ive met all kinds of foreigners here who came on tourist visas and ended up getting jobs and staying for years. in fact its probably 10 to 1 people i meet who came on tourist visas vs those who didnt. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| ohahakehte wrote: |
| in fact its probably 10 to 1 people i meet who came on tourist visas vs those who didnt. |
If we are talking about teachers then I seriously doubt that ratio. All JETs and the vast majority of NOVA, GEOS, AEON and ECC teachers get their visas before they come here. I doubt that many university teachers fly in on a tourist visa before getting a job or those that work for private high schools. So who belongs to this vast majority of teachers you know who winged it? |
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bearcat
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Jon Taylor wrote: |
All the times I have hired I have requested the staff arrive into Japan and their visa's will be processed in a matter of days.
I also request a copy of their original degree certificates as I require them for their eligibility certificates. These are sent prior to them arriving.
Once they arrive their visa's are processed in a matter of days.
This procedure is considerably quicker and is used by many of the 'smaller' companies. Most of the better jobs available in Japan are through the smaller companies.
There has to be an element of trust on both sides but I think it's naive to suggest that you have to have your visa upon entry to the country and it will also rule you out when it comes to finding a good position.
Why are you all so negative about companies that use this procedure. It's not illegal. The person enters on a tourist visa and it's so simple to change that to another type.
Many companies work on short time scales when it comes to recruitment and it's not feasable to wait for the applicant to process their visa in their own country.
As regards ALS, I have a friend who manages at a school and they say that it's great. The teachers I have spoken to have never had a bad word to say about it.
Think it's a pretty standard contract in terms of pay and housing. |
Misleading.
If as an employer, you hire someone to come to Japan to work for you but they enter the country on a tourist visa and begin work while on that tourist visa, it is illegal and there are very few exceptions to that which immigration will capitulate to.
Additionally, if they are working while on a tourist visa, it gives them very little recourse against an employer if they are exploited by that employer.
What you did in your above statement though was mislead readers to a certain extent. If someone comes to Japan on a tourist visa while their CoE etc are being processed there is no harm in that.... as long as they do not work or receive pay during that time.
You did not make that clear in your above statement, and thus it is misleading to spin it as a "its ok".
So the school pays them cash during that time and gets them to work.... which is illegal but hard to prove since with smaller schools they can hide that they are doing so.
Later when the teacher does get their visa through them, they simply alter the record to reflect the money paid earlier at a later time. This way for tax purposes the money is accounted for... although there are even some eikaiwa mom n pop places that I would speculate do not pay what they should in taxes. But such could be debated, Im sure.
I don't think it is prudent to be telling people its ok to come here in that manner when you cannot accept the responsibility for those individuals if or when they are faced with immigration or exploitation issues.
Not that I really care for the way NS has conducted himself in the forums overall, but his way of handling things with that prospective employer which evidently turned into his employer was a good for that situation... even though it seemed they wanted to bring him over here to start working on a tourist visa to begin with which would then have me wonder what other things they would be willing to delve into.
As for ALS:
ALS branch schools have tended to have very little in the way of problems but franchised one's under ALS's name have come under scrutiny. In the past ALS has not had very adequate control over the conditions at franchised schools and exploitation of teachers and staff has occurred. There was a whole thread on GP a few years ago about the story of a guy who had a bad situation with an ALS franchise school in central Japan. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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That's a good post bearcat and I think it should be pointed out that Jon Taylor's post should be treated with suspicion.
Why?
Because it is self-serving. Unless he is misrepresenting himself, Jon Taylor is hiring for a company or a school and so he has his and/or the school's interests at heart and not those of the potential employees.
| Jon Taylor wrote: |
| There has to be an element of trust on both sides but I think it's naive to suggest that you have to have your visa upon entry to the country and it will also rule you out when it comes to finding a good position. |
An element of trust? Sure, you have to trust the people you give your documents to, but what kind of trust do they have to invest in you? If they don't like you they don't need to process the visa once you are here and then what will you do?
| Quote: |
| Why are you all so negative about companies that use this procedure. It's not illegal. The person enters on a tourist visa and it's so simple to change that to another type. |
Why? Because companies that do this have a huge power advantage over the people they employ that aren't on working visas. What do they get out of it?
| Quote: |
| Many companies work on short time scales when it comes to recruitment and it's not feasable to wait for the applicant to process their visa in their own country. |
Translation: Please do us a favour, even though we'll try and make it look as though it's the other way round. |
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Jon Taylor
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 238
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| bearcat wrote: |
| Jon Taylor wrote: |
All the times I have hired I have requested the staff arrive into Japan and their visa's will be processed in a matter of days.
I also request a copy of their original degree certificates as I require them for their eligibility certificates. These are sent prior to them arriving.
Once they arrive their visa's are processed in a matter of days.
This procedure is considerably quicker and is used by many of the 'smaller' companies. Most of the better jobs available in Japan are through the smaller companies.
There has to be an element of trust on both sides but I think it's naive to suggest that you have to have your visa upon entry to the country and it will also rule you out when it comes to finding a good position.
Why are you all so negative about companies that use this procedure. It's not illegal. The person enters on a tourist visa and it's so simple to change that to another type.
Many companies work on short time scales when it comes to recruitment and it's not feasable to wait for the applicant to process their visa in their own country.
As regards ALS, I have a friend who manages at a school and they say that it's great. The teachers I have spoken to have never had a bad word to say about it.
Think it's a pretty standard contract in terms of pay and housing. |
Misleading.
If as an employer, you hire someone to come to Japan to work for you but they enter the country on a tourist visa and begin work while on that tourist visa, it is illegal and there are very few exceptions to that which immigration will capitulate to.
Additionally, if they are working while on a tourist visa, it gives them very little recourse against an employer if they are exploited by that employer.
What you did in your above statement though was mislead readers to a certain extent. If someone comes to Japan on a tourist visa while their CoE etc are being processed there is no harm in that.... as long as they do not work or receive pay during that time.
You did not make that clear in your above statement, and thus it is misleading to spin it as a "its ok".
So the school pays them cash during that time and gets them to work.... which is illegal but hard to prove since with smaller schools they can hide that they are doing so.
Later when the teacher does get their visa through them, they simply alter the record to reflect the money paid earlier at a later time. This way for tax purposes the money is accounted for... although there are even some eikaiwa mom n pop places that I would speculate do not pay what they should in taxes. But such could be debated, Im sure.
I don't think it is prudent to be telling people its ok to come here in that manner when you cannot accept the responsibility for those individuals if or when they are faced with immigration or exploitation issues.
Not that I really care for the way NS has conducted himself in the forums overall, but his way of handling things with that prospective employer which evidently turned into his employer was a good for that situation... even though it seemed they wanted to bring him over here to start working on a tourist visa to begin with which would then have me wonder what other things they would be willing to delve into.
As for ALS:
ALS branch schools have tended to have very little in the way of problems but franchised one's under ALS's name have come under scrutiny. In the past ALS has not had very adequate control over the conditions at franchised schools and exploitation of teachers and staff has occurred. There was a whole thread on GP a few years ago about the story of a guy who had a bad situation with an ALS franchise school in central Japan. |
No employee that I have hired has worked or been asked to work whilst on a tourist visa.
All of my employees (which I might add are all very happy in their positions), arrive into Japan on a tourist visa and that visa in then changed within 48 hours of their arrival.
I maintain that this method is not uncommon amongst the smaller schools due to timescales spent on obtaining the visa in one's native country.
It is so much easier for the employee as little travelling and time is spent changing the visa and it means that hiring can be done in a considerably less timescale.
I am more than happy to give anyone timescales and further details on any points I have mentioned. |
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nonsmoker
Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 352
Location: Exactly here and now.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jon Taylor wrote: |
No employee that I have hired has worked or been asked to work whilst on a tourist visa.
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Just because your school might not do this, it doesn't mean other schools don't either. Frankly, you can only speak for your own school when it comes to these practices. A big purpose of these forums is to give people accurate information and to inform them that some employers actually do make people work illegally and take advantage of them. The way I look at it, it's better to be safe than sorry. |
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leosmith
Joined: 25 May 2007
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Jon Taylor wrote: |
| Many companies work on short time scales when it comes to recruitment and it's not feasable to wait for the applicant to process their visa in their own country. |
Doesn't it take about the same amount of time between initial contact and actual working using either method? Where is the time savings? |
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bearcat
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Jon Taylor wrote: |
No employee that I have hired has worked or been asked to work whilst on a tourist visa.
All of my employees (which I might add are all very happy in their positions), arrive into Japan on a tourist visa and that visa in then changed within 48 hours of their arrival.
I maintain that this method is not uncommon amongst the smaller schools due to timescales spent on obtaining the visa in one's native country.
It is so much easier for the employee as little travelling and time is spent changing the visa and it means that hiring can be done in a considerably less timescale.
I am more than happy to give anyone timescales and further details on any points I have mentioned. |
Yep, you now clarified the point I made on this in exactly the way I thought you would. |
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bearcat
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| nonsmoker wrote: |
Just because your school might not do this, it doesn't mean other schools don't either. Frankly, you can only speak for your own school when it comes to these practices. A big purpose of these forums is to give people accurate information and to inform them that some employers actually do make people work illegally and take advantage of them. The way I look at it, it's better to be safe than sorry. |
He's only been in Japan since 2005 or so NS and only at his current position for at least a year or so. |
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nonsmoker
Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 352
Location: Exactly here and now.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| So? |
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DNK
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 236
Location: the South
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I suppose one of my questions has been answered. But now I have yet another.
So, again, is it true that you can't start the process out of country and end it in-country?
And how long does it usually take to process once in-country? I'm hearing 48hours to 48 days here... From what I've read, I'd tend toward the latter, but I'm not sure of course. I did not see anything specific about this on the Japan site or anywhere else in my searching (either question, that is). |
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nonsmoker
Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 352
Location: Exactly here and now.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| DNK wrote: |
Well, I suppose one of my questions has been answered. But now I have yet another.
So, again, is it true that you can't start the process out of country and end it in-country?
And how long does it usually take to process once in-country? I'm hearing 48hours to 48 days here... From what I've read, I'd tend toward the latter, but I'm not sure of course. I did not see anything specific about this on the Japan site or anywhere else in my searching (either question, that is). |
Just finish the whole process in your home country. Don't dive headfirst into the unknown if you're not legal. |
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DNK
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 236
Location: the South
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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That's not an answer to either question, though. If the answer to the first question is "you can't", that changes things when it comes time to make a final decision and the stance I can take with the company. If the answer to the second is two days, then I wouldn't have much issue. If it's the standard month+, then that's a bit different.
Otherwise, I've heard the succinctly summed-up positions for and against this, and am looking for more information in order to make an informed decision. Simply stating your conclusions (however you managed to reach them) does me no good in this respect. |
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