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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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 Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:04 am Post subject: Wall Street English |
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There was some vague reference to the terms offered by Wall Street English a while back. I found an earlier post on this very board regarding this subject. No wonder Wall Street, and their advocate Pop-Fly, are so secretive about the terms and pay there.
| Sunpower wrote: |
I had an interview with Wall Street English in Taipei.
Here are some things that I learned about this company:
Full Time 30 hours a week
$55,500 per month |
By my calculations that works out at about NTD462 an hour, being a combination of both teaching and office hours. Pretty low on the hourly scale, but some consideration needs to be given to Pop Fly�s suggestion about the ease of the work and the professionalism of the work atmosphere. The part time / hourly rate at Wall Street seems to be NTD550, which is not as low as you can go, but certainly isn�t a very high wage either. If money is a consideration you are probably better off sticking with kids. If you only want to teach adults, you are probably best advised to seek out one of those smaller, lesser known schools that specializes in adults only classes. In most cases you should be able to secure a job offering the same as the rates for teaching kids, and provided that you are qualified or experienced even higher wages are available.
| Sunpower wrote: |
1/2 wages for training
1 week training period |
This is pretty reasonable. Many schools require that you undertake training without pay. While training provided by schools is free to teachers and saves you from having to spend your own money attending courses or buying books on how to teach, I understand that the requirement to attend training without pay is an issue for some. The fact that Wall Street actually gives a stipend for this training is a real bonus in my opinion.
| Sunpower wrote: |
$30,000 max bonus is possible
$25,000 towards a return home air ticket |
Bonuses are great but best not factored in when working out how much you will be earning. So much can happen between now and when you get your bonus. Be careful of terms such as �maximum� and �possible� if written into your contract as they are very much open to interpretation and therefore misunderstandings can occur. Enjoy your bonus when it arrives but don�t rely upon it.
| Sunpower wrote: |
| Split shifts are normal |
This is a real negative from where I sit. I assume that this means lengthy breaks between classes. Whilst the system at Wall Street may suit some, I can�t imagine that it would be a bonus for many. Whether you want to study Chinese, earn extra cash with a second job / privates, or just have free time to relax; split shifts tend to break up a day such that these become very difficult to organize. I personally like to do my work in blocks, earn my money and then move on to whatever other things I have planned for the day. Considering that most schools offer block hours, one would have to be pretty impressed with Wall Street�s other offerings to accept a schedule that includes split shifts.
| Sunpower wrote: |
No Paid Vacation during the 1st Year
2nd Year 5 paid days vacation (5!) |
What! I assume that this means that there is no vacation in the first year � paid nor unpaid. Pop-Fly please correct me if I am wrong on this! Now I take my work seriously, but I believe everyone needs and should have time off. Considering that teachers are working weekends at Wall Street, I would imagine that a bit of vacation time would enable them to recharge their batteries. I personally don�t care whether my holidays are paid or unpaid as I earn enough when I am working to cover for time off, but I do want my own free time. This is a first for me. I have never heard of a school that doesn�t offer some form of holiday during the first contract year.
| Sunpower wrote: |
| Health care, Work Permit, ARC provided |
Standard entitlements
| Sunpower wrote: |
Computer Assisted Language Learning used at Wall Street
They look slick on the surface. Management seemed very unorganized but this is true in a lot of Taiwanese schools. |
Sounds nice when I compare this to some of the places I have worked, but have to weigh this up with the concerns about management. Its what�s under the surface that really matters. What�s the point of having nice new classrooms kitted out with computers if management doesn�t follow on with this line of professionalism.
| Sunpower wrote: |
| Per hour wages work are not very competitive if you work divide the wage by number of hours worked. They want teachers to go full time as it is cheaper for them this way. |
Reasonable from the schools perspective, but you would really have to decide what is in your best interests before making a commitment either way. Personally, I wouldn�t go the salary route, but I know that others prefer this, so I think that it is good that Wall Street gives teachers the option.
| Sunpower wrote: |
| Part Time minimum 14 hours a week $550 per hour (Higher than full time but still below average pay) Must work Saturday or Sunday |
I can understand that schools may be busy over the weekends, hence the need for weekend classes, but most teachers quite reasonably prefer to keep their weekends to themselves. Previously Saturdays were a big day for private kids English schools but I have noticed that many schools have moved away from Wednesday, Saturday classes, as even parents are becoming reluctant to have their kids attend classes on weekends. I guess it is personal choice for teachers, but this is no doubt an area of concern for many teachers who interview with Wall Street. Particularly considering the holiday concerns mentioned above.
| Sunpower wrote: |
If you get a no-show student, you don't get paid.
However, if you elect to do "chores" around the school You will be
compensated at 1/2 your hourly rate |
This has surely got to be the biggest problem with this school and the most illogical thing that I have ever heard. I mean what�s the thinking behind this. �No shows� are an habitual problem with private students and I thought that this is why teachers would choose to work at a school such as Wall Street that presents itself in such a professional light. I don�t see any reason that a teacher who turns up in time for work should not get paid just because a student doesn�t show. I think that it is great that the school tells teachers this up front before they sign on, but I am sure that lots of potential teachers have a problem with it. Surely instituting a practice whereby students pay for classes in advance and forfeit payment for a class if they fail to give at least 24 hours intention not to attend would be fair on everyone. It not only encourages students to be diligent, but protects the teachers and the school itself from loss of money. Why doesn�t Wall Street adopt such a practice?
Here�s the link to this original post if you want to check it out:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=2221
Overall, the deal offered by Wall Street isn�t that bad, but it wouldn�t be difficult to do better. I assume that they have set the bar high in order to deter some individuals from applying. This is reasonable. After all, anyone whose first question in an interview is �How much do I get paid?�, is probably best avoided, but surely schools need to balance what they offer, with what the teachers require. I don�t think that Wall Street does this, and it seems that they are aware of this hence their reluctance to openly disclose this information.
I have never worked there, but Pop-Fly has. I am sure that he will give us some feedback on the above, and hopefully he answer some of the questions that I have posed above so that we can get a better understanding of this school. |
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mjed9
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| If you only want to teach adults, you are probably best advised to seek out one of those smaller, lesser known schools that specializes in adults only classes |
Can you recommend or do you know of any of these schools?
Thanks
MJED |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Wall Street doesn't sound too bad to me, a n00b. 
But ok, so there are better places. Let's have 'em.  |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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I don't work at an adults school so I don't know a lot of details myself. This is why I stated that they are smaller and lesser known. If you want to reap the rewards of finding one of these schools you pretty much have to put on your working boots and search them out yourself. After all, if they were as widely known as some of the chain schools then they probably wouldn't need any new staff or wouldnt offer the better terms. I dont want my advice to be hollow and genuinely want to help as much as I can so would recommend that you check out this list of schools:
http://www.geocities.com/allhou/schoo.htm
Unfortunately it doesnt seperate adults from kids schools but it is a start. One on the list that I do have some experience with is Milton on Chung Shan Nth Rd. It is a small school that only employed three foreign teachers when I was around, but the conditions were quite good. In line with what I suggested in my original post. If I can come up with any other names I will post them, but details may be a bit sketchy. As I say, they are not well know and I dont work at them.
I don't believe that I have stated that one should avoid Wall Street. I went to the trouble of reviewing this school as one of the major critics of Kojen, who often recommend that people avoid Kojen, now recommends this school. I am merely suggesting that if you are committed to teaching adults, and put in a little effort then you can find a better deal than what they are offering. I am not talking about NTD1000 an hour or anything, but a nice secure job paying around NTD600-700 for adults classes. I believe that my post has laid out the Wall Street offer pretty clearly. If you are happy with what they are offering then go for it. If not then there are alternatives available but you may have to put in some effort to find them. |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Wow Brian...what an effort.....well...I will respond, but it's late now and I want to do it justice. I'll say this for now....it's only 27 hours a week and you'd only have 1 split shift per week. More later.... |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Are you asking for information or just flaming somebody? |
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dez
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Aristotle wrote: |
| Are you asking for information or just flaming somebody? |
The question seems preety legitimate to me. From my investigations though, I have discovered that they will only do interviews in Taiwan. I guess there are enough people already there to satisfy the demand. |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Wall Street English |
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Brian,
To begin with, even if you are trying to be a troll, I appreciate the effort you've put in on behalf of WSI. I would hope you aren't trolling, but are genuinely interested in supplying potential teachers with as much information as possible. With that in mind, I will now respond to your post.
| brian wrote: |
| There was some vague reference to the terms offered by Wall Street English a while back. I found an earlier post on this very board regarding this subject. No wonder Wall Street, and their advocate Pop-Fly, are so secretive about the terms and pay there. |
I have never been secretive about WSI...I may have been limited, time-wise, when I've posted, but have eventually gotten around to answering all questions. As for the school's secrecy, I can't confirm or deny this. I can only share my personal experience. I was told all the details of the contract within 10 minutes of my 1st interview.
| Brian wrote: |
| Sunpower wrote: |
I had an interview with Wall Street English in Taipei.
Here are some things that I learned about this company:
Full Time 30 hours a week
$55,500 per month |
By my calculations that works out at about NTD462 an hour, being a combination of both teaching and office hours. Pretty low on the hourly scale, but some consideration needs to be given to Pop Fly�s suggestion about the ease of the work and the professionalism of the work atmosphere. The part time / hourly rate at Wall Street seems to be NTD550, which is not as low as you can go, but certainly isn�t a very high wage either. If money is a consideration you are probably better off sticking with kids. If you only want to teach adults, you are probably best advised to seek out one of those smaller, lesser known schools that specializes in adults only classes. In most cases you should be able to secure a job offering the same as the rates for teaching kids, and provided that you are qualified or experienced even higher wages are available. |
Okay....it's 27 hours and 3 admin. hours that are only in place if your manager needs you to do something admin-related. Like attend a meeting. It gives management a leg-hold on teachers who may whine (so far, a non-existent entity) about not being paid for meetings. I think it was a wise move on their part. So you can re-do the math.
I have also previously stated that the real money is working with kids. If money is your sole motivation, go for it. As for comparing WSI with other adult institutes, bear in mind that WSI gives you 27 hours a week each and every week of the year. My previous school promised me that but the reality was a lot less. At WSI, a teacher doesn't have to struggle to get hours in the winter.
| Brian wrote: |
| Sunpower wrote: |
1/2 wages for training
1 week training period |
This is pretty reasonable. Many schools require that you undertake training without pay. While training provided by schools is free to teachers and saves you from having to spend your own money attending courses or buying books on how to teach, I understand that the requirement to attend training without pay is an issue for some. The fact that Wall Street actually gives a stipend for this training is a real bonus in my opinion. |
Training is a total of 16 hours.
| Brian wrote: |
| Sunpower wrote: |
$30,000 max bonus is possible
$25,000 towards a return home air ticket |
Bonuses are great but best not factored in when working out how much you will be earning. So much can happen between now and when you get your bonus. Be careful of terms such as �maximum� and �possible� if written into your contract as they are very much open to interpretation and therefore misunderstandings can occur. Enjoy your bonus when it arrives but don�t rely upon it. |
This is accurate info....and if you are a person of your word, you will stick to your contract and work your year. If you do this, then you will be able to "rely upon" your bonus. That increases your basic salary package by approx. NT$4500/month. Keep that calculator out Brian.
| Brian wrote: |
| Sunpower wrote: |
| Split shifts are normal |
This is a real negative from where I sit. I assume that this means lengthy breaks between classes. Whilst the system at Wall Street may suit some, I can�t imagine that it would be a bonus for many. Whether you want to study Chinese, earn extra cash with a second job / privates, or just have free time to relax; split shifts tend to break up a day such that these become very difficult to organize. I personally like to do my work in blocks, earn my money and then move on to whatever other things I have planned for the day. Considering that most schools offer block hours, one would have to be pretty impressed with Wall Street�s other offerings to accept a schedule that includes split shifts. |
1 split shift a week. Mine is on Friday. I start work at 10:30 AM and and by 2:00 PM I am napping at home. Back to work by 6, and home by 9:30.
| Brian wrote: |
| Sunpower wrote: |
No Paid Vacation during the 1st Year
2nd Year 5 paid days vacation (5!) |
What! I assume that this means that there is no vacation in the first year � paid nor unpaid. Pop-Fly please correct me if I am wrong on this! Now I take my work seriously, but I believe everyone needs and should have time off. Considering that teachers are working weekends at Wall Street, I would imagine that a bit of vacation time would enable them to recharge their batteries. I personally don�t care whether my holidays are paid or unpaid as I earn enough when I am working to cover for time off, but I do want my own free time. This is a first for me. I have never heard of a school that doesn�t offer some form of holiday during the first contract year. |
If you need some time off to escape to Bali, or to nip home for a wedding, then talk to your manager. They need about a month's notice before taking any vacation as the scheduling is pretty intricate and detailed, but they are a reasonable management team. You can have the time off if you want it.
| Brian wrote: |
| Sunpower wrote: |
| Health care, Work Permit, ARC provided |
Standard entitlements |
ARC is not provided, it is sponsored.
| Brian wrote: |
| Sunpower wrote: |
Computer Assisted Language Learning used at Wall Street
They look slick on the surface. Management seemed very unorganized but this is true in a lot of Taiwanese schools. |
Sounds nice when I compare this to some of the places I have worked, but have to weigh this up with the concerns about management. Its what�s under the surface that really matters. What�s the point of having nice new classrooms kitted out with computers if management doesn�t follow on with this line of professionalism. |
I wonder how Sunpower can make a qualified judgement about management's organization. WSI's management is not perfect, but they are the best team I have experienced in Taiwan. I have worked at 4 different schools and interviewed at about 50 more. Management in Taiwan is a myth at best while micro-management seems to be the rule at all the places I've worked before. Not true for WSI. They take the training period seriously, as the methodology is quite intense and unique. This may cause some thinner-skinned teachers to feel they are being micro-managed. Once you are trained, you are pretty much left on your own. The support is there if you need assistance and feedback is quite common, but I am my own man. I have found how to personalize the curriculum to make it my own. I trust the methodology and that is the key to becoming a successful WSI teacher. With schools in 27 countries and over 1 million students, WSI has a way to teach ESL that few others can emulate. Sticking to this method is important and I can see how some may consider this being micro-managed. Hey, you don't like the curriculum, then maybe WSI is not for you. The one word I would use to describe the management team is "organized". I think you are tilting at windmills on this one.
| Brian wrote: |
| Sunpower wrote: |
| Per hour wages work are not very competitive if you work divide the wage by number of hours worked. They want teachers to go full time as it is cheaper for them this way. |
Reasonable from the schools perspective, but you would really have to decide what is in your best interests before making a commitment either way. Personally, I wouldn�t go the salary route, but I know that others prefer this, so I think that it is good that Wall Street gives teachers the option. |
Don't forget....gauranteed hours....a schedule that doesn't change....a professional environment...clean, friendly....sometimes we sacrifice a little quantity for some quality. Let me ask this: How many teachers out there actually wake up excited to go to work. I and my co-teachers feel this way every day. We make okay money and as the school has only been open for 2 years, I'd imagine the benefit package will become more lucrative in a short while.
| Brian wrote: |
| Sunpower wrote: |
| Part Time minimum 14 hours a week $550 per hour (Higher than full time but still below average pay) Must work Saturday or Sunday |
I can understand that schools may be busy over the weekends, hence the need for weekend classes, but most teachers quite reasonably prefer to keep their weekends to themselves. Previously Saturdays were a big day for private kids English schools but I have noticed that many schools have moved away from Wednesday, Saturday classes, as even parents are becoming reluctant to have their kids attend classes on weekends. I guess it is personal choice for teachers, but this is no doubt an area of concern for many teachers who interview with Wall Street. Particularly considering the holiday concerns mentioned above. |
Yes, this has concerned some in the past. As we cater to professionals, and not kids, our peak periods are indeed the weekends. This said, you still get 2 days off a week. I have a wee bit of seniority, so I take Sunday/Monday off. I still have a weekend and if I had a life, I'd do something with it..... 
| Brian wrote: |
| Sunpower wrote: |
If you get a no-show student, you don't get paid.
However, if you elect to do "chores" around the school You will be
compensated at 1/2 your hourly rate |
This has surely got to be the biggest problem with this school and the most illogical thing that I have ever heard. I mean what�s the thinking behind this. �No shows� are an habitual problem with private students and I thought that this is why teachers would choose to work at a school such as Wall Street that presents itself in such a professional light. I don�t see any reason that a teacher who turns up in time for work should not get paid just because a student doesn�t show. I think that it is great that the school tells teachers this up front before they sign on, but I am sure that lots of potential teachers have a problem with it. Surely instituting a practice whereby students pay for classes in advance and forfeit payment for a class if they fail to give at least 24 hours intention not to attend would be fair on everyone. It not only encourages students to be diligent, but protects the teachers and the school itself from loss of money. Why doesn�t Wall Street adopt such a practice? |
Now Brian, you are assuming again, and you know what happens when you assume, don't you?
WSI has it's own penalty system for no-shows....the students are very motivated, therefore, the no-shows are a rarity. The half-pay thing is for p/t teachers. Full time teachers can do some admin work or PR or observe another teacher to enhance your own skills, whatever......F/T teachers are still paid their salary, even if they had a month of no shows.
Really? Where? As someone who is constantly bringing others to task for being vague, maybe you might supply us with a list of such opportunities?
| Brian wrote: |
| I assume that they have set the bar high in order to deter some individuals from applying. This is reasonable. After all, anyone whose first question in an interview is �How much do I get paid?�, is probably best avoided, but surely schools need to balance what they offer, with what the teachers require. I don�t think that Wall Street does this, and it seems that they are aware of this hence their reluctance to openly disclose this information. |
Huh? What do I require, exactly, that WSI is not providing?
| Brian wrote: |
| I have never worked there, but Pop-Fly has. I am sure that he will give us some feedback on the above, and hopefully he answer some of the questions that I have posed above so that we can get a better understanding of this school. |
Again, thank you Brian, for starting this thread. I think it has cleared up many misconceptions about WSI. If anyone has any other questions, feel free to contact one of the schools directly here or continue the discussion here.
| Dez wrote: |
| From my investigations though, I have discovered that they will only do interviews in Taiwan. |
I looked into this a little further Dez, and we do hire from overseas. I believe management prefers to hire experienced teachers and that they (the teachers) have a stable Taiwan lifestyle (apartment, network, etc), but they do respond and consider overseas applicants. Sorry to mislead you otherwise. |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Pop Fly, I would like to thank you for your patient work here. I was interested in WSI from your initial posts, and I read Brian's post here with interest.
I believe Brian's post was fair when it is considered that he was dealing with secondhand information, rather than personal experience, and I aslo believe you have treated his post fairly.
I am now increasingly interested in WSI, and will probably end up applying there when I move to Taiwan in June 2004.
Thank you both for your work, and your intelligent, non-aggressive, posts. |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street English |
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Take a look at my other posts and you will see that I am not anti-school, and am very careful and as thorough as I can be with my posts. I really believe that this board exists to provide information, and I hope that I do that. There is not a lot of info out there about Wall Street, with the only complaint being that they are overly secretive about what they have to offer. This problem seemed to be borne out by earlier discussions with Pop_Fly, hence my interest in finding out more about the school. I think that Pop_Fly has more than addressed the questions and points that I raised, and this is great. I for one appreciate him taking the time to provide this first hand info.
I still have some concerns about the deal offered by Wall Street, but these are not major problems. After all no job is perfect, and in comparing these concerns with non-payment of wages and visa problems at other schools, they are really quite minor. I agree that money is not everything and that the security offered by Wall Street as well as quality teaching materials (Pop_Fly mentioned these on an earlier post), make this school worth including on a list of possibilities. I stand by my earlier advice to put your walking shoes on and see what comparative offers you can find, but take care that you end up working legally and that your work hours, pay and conditions are guaranteed. I will provide alternative school details as I come across them, but I would have no hesitation in recommending that people interview with Wall Street in the future as it seems that I and others have largely misunderstood this school.
Thanks again Pop_Fly! |
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mjed9
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Actually I had an interview with WSI today and was impressed.
If all goes well with my DEMO!!!!!! I shall start work with them next year! |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Fortigurn wrote: |
Pop Fly, I would like to thank you for your patient work here. I was interested in WSI from your initial posts, and I read Brian's post here with interest.
I believe Brian's post was fair when it is considered that he was dealing with secondhand information, rather than personal experience, and I aslo believe you have treated his post fairly.
I am now increasingly interested in WSI, and will probably end up applying there when I move to Taiwan in June 2004.
Thank you both for your work, and your intelligent, non-aggressive, posts. |
You are most welcome comrade. I too believe he was well-intentioned. Brian is an excellent jousting partner in this somewhat barren forum. He stirs things up, but there is always an underlying ambition for truth....I like that....and again, thank you for the reassurance....upon re-reading my post, I thought it a tad snide in parts....all in good fun eh?
Caution on that June move tho.....the one thing to consider, or rather the first thing to consider, when we are talking about the "WHEN" is that you beat the tax man....Get here in May, get hired, get your paperwork done, and be LEGALLY on the books by June 31st...(please correct me if I have the deadline wrong...is it July????).....it means an all expense paid trip to Thailand if you do get on the books b4 the deadline...it means a very large donation to the cause of democracy in China if you don't.
Peace
Pop |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Pop Fly wrote: |
Caution on that June move tho.....the one thing to consider, or rather the first thing to consider, when we are talking about the "WHEN" is that you beat the tax man....Get here in May, get hired, get your paperwork done, and be LEGALLY on the books by June 31st...(please correct me if I have the deadline wrong...is it July????).....it means an all expense paid trip to Thailand if you do get on the books b4 the deadline...it means a very large donation to the cause of democracy in China if you don't. |
Ok, that's the first I've heard of any of this. What does it all mean?
I have a marriage planned in early June, which I can shift a bit. What should I do in terms of planning and executing my move? |
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mjed9
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:01 am Post subject: |
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The tax year in Taiwan is very different and runs from Dec to Dec.
If you arrive after June 31st 2004 you will be taxed at 20% (instead of the normal 6-10%) for the rest of the year and NOT be able to get any of it back. The money WILL be lost. You will also continue to be taxed at 20% until June 31st of next year (2005) at which point you will be able to get a tax rebate sometime around February the following year (2006).
If you arrive and get legally set up before June 31st you will get a tax rebate February 2005 and not lose any money.
I arrived in September 2002 and lost the tax for that year and will now pick up a tax rebate for the first six months of this year next February.
It is SOOOOO worth it! |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the explanation Brian. So does this mean that if I arrive and get set up before June 31, I get taxed at 20%, then get a rebate in February, and am then taxed at 6-10% thereafter? |
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