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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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 Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: Re: White face... Your hired! Let's Discuss.... |
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| u24tc wrote: |
| I'd like to raise a topic for discussion which I believe is job related. It is the basis that individuals who have no degree or teaching experience, simply get hired because of their appearence. |
I understand your point but I am sure that anyone who has been here for a while has seen some unqualified teachers who excelled in their jobs, and the reverse of some well qualified individuals who just did not connect and therefore were unable to achieve their aims.
I totally agree that there should be a minimum requirement to enable one to be legally employed as a foreign English teacher here - but I have mixed feelings about what that minimum requirement should be.
Some would suggest that it should be an education major at university level. But as someone else has pointed out the institution of such a requirement would likely result in a lack of teachers. This would be detrimental as it would mean that only the most 'profitable' of schools could afford to hire a foreign teacher while most schools would go without. Seems kind of counter-productive to me as we all know that even the 'worst' schools have some very talented students who are inspired by their foreign teachers to excell in English.
To just open the gates to anyone with a white face and a passport is of course going the other way and is totally undesirable.
Seems to me that the requirement of at least a university degree in any discipline and a passport from a country that can fairly be considered a native English speaking country should be the minimum paper requirements for the job. In this way schools can be clear that the individual is educated him or her self, and in my opinion being educated makes one a better educator.
At the interview stage schools can then sort out what they want above that, and I personally am a big believer in attitude and personality. Not much point in having a foreign teacher with impeccible educational credentials if he or she is introverted, difficult to work with, and carries a chip on his or her shoulder. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: |
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To just open the gates to anyone with a white face and a passport is of course going the other way and is totally undesirable.
Seems to me that the requirement of at least a university degree in any discipline and a passport from a country that can fairly be considered a native English speaking country should be the minimum paper requirements for the job. |
This was the poster who wrote, in his posts of ages back - that the only qualification needed to be an FT was the ability to speak English and a good character - It seems even the rock of griswald eventually yields to the tide of sensible thinking. |
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Sinobear
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 1269
Location: Purgatory
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: |
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It seems a case of sour grapes to me. I know many people who are not 'good looking' or 'just white' who have excellent positions in China (ESL or other).
One interesting thing about working and living in China that I realize...with all the PC reverse-discrimination in the west, it's refreshing that you can actually chase your dream and prosper in China - if you have the drive and determination. Education/qualifications do not always entr the equation.
The other thing I've realized...charm and arrogance go a long way here. Strike the perfect balance between the two and you'll be a hit.
Cheers! |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| vikuk wrote: |
| This was the poster who wrote, in his posts of ages back - that the only qualification needed to be an FT was the ability to speak English and a good character - It seems even the rock of griswald eventually yields to the tide of sensible thinking. |
vikdk this is yet another misquotation. If you are going to make reference to my comments on this forum in an effort to discuss these then at least have the common decency to quote me correctly.
I have never stated nor suggested that the only qualification to be a FT is good character. You will not be able to quote me on this as I have never written it.
As per my post above I do believe that there is more to being a good teacher than academic qualifications.
As you seem to disagree with me on this perhaps you would like to outline your opinion on this matter? Are you suggesting that all that matters is academic qualifications? If not then please explain how your views differ from those in my earlier post in this thread? Oh and I mean the whole post that I made not just some selective and misleading misquotes!!! |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry old chap - why bring up the past when it should be your present posts that we pay most attention to 
And it's good to see you're also paying attention to mine - for a while I actually thought you were ignoring me
and yes i can't find any quote where you talk about just a good character - and I can't be assed to find it - so I'll say sorry instead 
Last edited by vikuk on Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Mister Al wrote: |
So you'll be seeing your boss on Monday to ask for a pay cut? I suspect not. Or maybe you are better qualified. So what do you suggest the actual criteria for getting better conditions/salary than local teachers should be?
What about a situation whereby a local teacher has a BA and MA and a few years experience, as many do, and is on a salary of say RMB3500, you would say that a FT with same qualifications/experience should insist on the same conditions even if they are offered a better deal? Somehow I don't think that's gonna happen but maybe you should if only to show that you are a person of action and not mere words. |
I'm not teaching in China at the moment I'm afraid. When I was teaching in China, I had a "voluntary" position (partly university, partly disabled students at different institutions) and earned 800 RMB a month, a reasonable salary for my province and my qualifications. Chinese English teachers earned 1200, but as foreign teachers we did have the usual nice apartments whereas the Chinese teachers still lived in dormitories two to a room (and most did so until they got married), so I reckon it levels out.
I would not refuse a university offer to live on a Chinese salary, but have enough common sense to realize that demanding a lower salary (at least in looking for work) would arouse suspicion and quite likely mean I wouldn't get the job in the first place, especially as most universities have standard packages they offer foreign teachers. The fact that equality is impossible does not mean it is not desirable, however.
(There is, of course, one reason why foreign teachers may need a higher salary - we've paid a lot simply to get to China, and in order to stay out of debt would probably need the airfare paid for either through a higher salary or through a set sum paid at the end of a contract). |
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dave_merk
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: |
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I've never met anyone in China who was hired because of their white face alone. I've met unqualified and unexperienced FTs (I was one when I first came here, in fact) who were gives chances and those who could cut it were kept and those who weren't were dropped.
Someone made a good point about the whole "minimum requirement" thing and I think it needs to be reiterated: contrary to what some people might think, there really aren't that many foreign degree-holders who are just waiting for their chance to run over to China and teach for 5,000 USD a year. Those that are will most likely view their time in China as an experience and then go back home after a year or two, thus denying the Chinese the chance to have good, dedicated long-term teachers. The only way to ensure that something like that would pan out is to lower the requirements for becoming a "teacher" in this country. Of course, there needs to be a standard of performance and those who don't turn out well in the classroom should be dropped.
A degree or a CELTA on your wall means nothing if you can't make the grade in the classroom. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| there needs to be a standard of performance and those who don't turn out well in the classroom should be dropped. |
So define these standards for us - otherwise your post means nothing.
Are these standards something to do with being able to stck the job for more than 2 years?
Maybe they should be something to do with pleasing our employers - and following their orders?
Is there some sort of goal we should be achieving to measure a specific standard?
How do you not turn out well in classroom - is it just a class management thing???? |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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OP, I don't know whether you are white or not. If you are not, then it'd be hard to give you much support when you write "your hired" instead of "you're hired" while trying to convince the Chinese that being white doesn't automatically mean somebody knows enough about English and/or teaching. 
I've beene xchanging e-mails with a university in Dalian over the last couple days. I was quite amused by some of the questions asked which my wife finds insulting.
- You have a Chinese face, were you born in China? (Duh! See the passport page)
- How do you reach your students' heart?
- How do you feel about students who think you are like one of them?
Last edited by tw on Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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- How do you reach your students' heart?
- How do you feel about students who think you are like one of them? |
- With blunt, rusted and perverse medieval instruments.
- I think they are wrong.
I look forward to seeing the response! |
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therock
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| bendan wrote: |
| That isn't really true. University teachers in China might teach just six or eight hours a week. They often get 13 months salary a year, plus pension contributions and housing fund payments. If the salary is half what an FT gets (common, in some cases it's about the same), they will be making much more than an FT on a ten-month, sixteen-hour contract, at least in terms of the hours worked. In big cities, FTs are sometimes a cheaper option for universities than a local. |
If this is true then it just shows how FT's salaries haven't increased in a few years. When I first come to China 3 years ago, the Chinese teachers were teaching 20 classes a week and getting between 30% and 40% of what the laowai was. Its funny and sad that while the Chinese teachers salaries are increasing, the laowai's salaries are staying the same or in some cases decreasing
Moral of the story is not to accept those crap 4000RMB jobs. |
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johnchina
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 816
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: none |
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vikuk wrote "Maybe they [the teaching requirements] should be something to do with pleasing our employers - and following their orders?"
Strangely enough, that would cover the two non-Chinese outfits I've worked for in China, but none of the Chinese ones.
Sinobear - Agreed. Charm and arrogance very often works!
Minimum standards are too difficult to enforce unless you stick to readily-definable ones like degree, CELTA, etc. As soon as you say something like "Should be good at ..." you are in Subjectiveland. Like other posters, I've met great teachers without qualifications (not many though!) and poor ones with a list of them as long as your arm (lots of those!).
As brsmith pointed out, that's not something that only relates to teachers - it's the same in every profession. |
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Mydnight
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 2892
Location: Guangdong, Dongguan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I've never met anyone in China who was hired because of their white face alone. |
That's funny. I meet them on a daily basis here. |
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dave_merk
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| There's a simple way to find out who is a good teacher and who isn't: put them in the classroom and see what happens for a week. If they do good give them a probationary period of teaching under supervision, if they suck fire them. What's so hard to understand about that? Teachers who are good will have staying power and be able to connect with the students while presenting the material. Teachers who are bad will be poorly-prepared and make bad classes. It's educational Darwinism: only the strong survive! |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| There's a simple way to find out who is a good teacher and who isn't: put them in the classroom and see what happens for a week. If they do good give them a probationary period of teaching under supervision, if they suck fire them. What's so hard to understand about that? Teachers who are good will have staying power and be able to connect with the students while presenting the material. Teachers who are bad will be poorly-prepared and make bad classes. It's educational Darwinism: only the strong survive |
Ohhh I see - but you still don't tell us what kind of "good" is expected from the FT! Are we to be like Chinese teachers but with a white face - since according to your theory our local colleagues must be judged good teachers, because they have both staying power and have a way of "connecting" with the students. And what about that small matter of "connecting" with your employers - do you think their perception of "good" is the same as yours" (I gotta feeling, that for many of them, keeping the fee paying students happy - with your white face - in any manner what �so-ever is �good�) � after all its them who judge any probationary period??? So far your good teacher theory is one that�s mainly concerned with that classroom survival instinct of keeping a job - not educational quality.
Remember Darwinism is also about change � evolution. In what way is the job of the FT evolving - isn't that what this whole thread all about? And how has the employer�s perception of what makes a �good� employee evolved in a different manner than many of our perceptions of a "good" teacher - a difference of opinion that discourages so many in staying long in the Chinese classrooms
Last edited by vikuk on Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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