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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| jr1965 wrote: |
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| But, yes, I do think that TEFLers would be better suited to solving Utah's problem. |
I think what's key here (and perhaps other posters have already said this) is that the teachers being recruited in the public schools in the US need to be both subject-area specialists (e.g., in math, science, language arts/reading, etc.) and able to deliver instruction to English language learners (the majority of whom in this case happen to be native speakers of Spanish). This is the kind of teacher that there is a shortage of. It's not just about teaching the language; it's about teaching the language through the content/subject matter. Do you think many TEFLers fit this profile? |
I would assert that we don't need teachers who are both but, instead, that students should be put through intensive English immersion. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| mdk wrote: |
What an interesting topic.
I happened to strike up a conversation when I was in Madrid last summer with a Spanish teacher who had been recruited to teach in Compton, California. I asked her how she had found Compton and she was very tactful in saying only that she had returned when her contract was finished. One of my previous avatars was a home health nurse who often saw patients in Compton 20+ years ago, it was bad enough then. The company hired me because they didn't want to send female nurses in there.
The quesion of bilingual education in California has political overtones that far outweigh any question of simply what is the best way to teach students. I have never seen a clearer example of how closely language and culture are intertwined as during the great bilingual education controversy back in the day. There are people who get absolutely rabid over the question ... on both sides. Overshadowing all of the debate is the demographic projection that Hispanics will become the majority group in California. Valgame! |
Of course, we're talking about Utah here but your post did bring back memories of the nine years I lived in Southern California. 
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| To speak to the issue of whether or not a TEFL would be better able to do the job, it is largely a moot point. A person would not be legally qualified to teach with only a TEFL unless they took a provisional credential and agreed to return to night school and earn a US credential in a specified time. |
In making the suggestion I was presuming that the applicants would also have whatever additional credentialing the state of Utah required - or at least that the State would have come up with a provisional credentialing program and helped the applicants obtain a full teaching credential.
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| Places like Utah are crying for teachers - as they are also desperate 20 miles outside of metropolitan Fresno. I once asked my teacher friends, what they thought of bringing in Russian teachers to meet the shortage. My friends - experienced teachers - were of the considered opinion that the school administration would happily throw them to the wolves and that it would not be fair to the Russians. I expect similar considerations would apply to Mexican teachers brought into Utah. One would have to ask whether the Mexican teachers would be teaching "pochos" (i.e., second and third generation mexican/americans) or "tejanos" (recently arrived immigrants). The two groups can be quite distinct. |
I suspect there are teacher shortages in most of the United States.
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| Finally, naturegirl wondered that Mexican workers would be found in Utah. I have just returned from visiting a friend in downstate Illinois. The next town over had a very large population of Mexican workers who had been brought in to work in a meat packing plant, because American workers couldn't be found. I drove down the street and it was as if a little bit of Boyle Heights had been shipped out to this little midwest town. |
They're everywhere! Seriously, though, Mexicans seem to go to where they can get the jobs - which is commendable.
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| Oh, and lastly, one of my teacher friends teaches a 6th grade class here in Fresno, her classes may be made up of native speakers of any number of different languages besides English and Spanish - Hmong, Cambodian, Punjabi, Chinese, take your pick. |
So, does that mean we should be providing each of these language groups bilingual education? (Not that you were actually suggesting any such thing, I'm just speculating). |
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wildchild
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 519
Location: Puebla 2009 - 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| So, does that mean we should be providing each of these language groups bilingual education? (Not that you were actually suggesting any such thing, I'm just speculating). |
I'll suggest it!
But what is this we talk? Each one of the communities above has more than enough educated professionals who are quite capable of offering the appropriate services. And we're not talking about one or two families here; they constitute significant portions of the community.
By the way, we are talking about a representative democracy here, are we not?
It seems that some here would prefer to dictate. |
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mdk
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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God's mercy on us all. I seem to have awakened the bilingual education monster by accident. Back in the day, there were teeth and eyes all over the floor from that one.
I was of the school that thought my kids ought to be taught Spanish along side of English, but I was divorced and despised as not loving English enough. Now my daughter and son are both telling me they wish they were fluent in Spanish. I tell them the same thing I tell my English students. It just takes work, but now they are busy adults.
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| Each one of the communities above has more than enough educated professionals who are quite capable of offering the appropriate services. And we're not talking about one or two families here; they constitute significant portions of the community. |
That may not apply well if the community is strictly migrant, which the current US government's stated aim appears to be. But now we are straying from language to politics. It is certainly amusing here in California to see that (although the government has laws making English the "official" language) the business community has no qualms in advertising in whatever language they think will make a buck.
It is also interesting to consider the case of the Hmong immigrants. They arrived in the community about 25 years ago almost totally innocent of American society. Now they have discovered block voting and are able to go down to the school board and tell them what they want.
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for those things do most please me,
which befall preposterously. |
It isn't something the English only crowd particularly enjoy (tee hee hee!) |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| wildchild wrote: |
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| So, does that mean we should be providing each of these language groups bilingual education? (Not that you were actually suggesting any such thing, I'm just speculating). |
I'll suggest it!
But what is this we talk? Each one of the communities above has more than enough educated professionals who are quite capable of offering the appropriate services. And we're not talking about one or two families here; they constitute significant portions of the community.
By the way, we are talking about a representative democracy here, are we not?
It seems that some here would prefer to dictate. |
"We" as in American society.
And, no America is not a democracy, it's a republic.
When people emigrate to the United States of America, it is expected of them that they would learn American English (at least it was until people like you started promoting this divide and conquer political correctness and diversity nonsense). It's still a perfectly reasonable expectation. If I were to emigrate to, say, Mexico, I would be expected to learn Spanish and that, too, is a reasonable expectation. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Chancellor wrote: |
| wildchild wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So, does that mean we should be providing each of these language groups bilingual education? (Not that you were actually suggesting any such thing, I'm just speculating). |
I'll suggest it!
But what is this we talk? Each one of the communities above has more than enough educated professionals who are quite capable of offering the appropriate services. And we're not talking about one or two families here; they constitute significant portions of the community.
By the way, we are talking about a representative democracy here, are we not?
It seems that some here would prefer to dictate. |
"We" as in American society.
And, no America is not a democracy, it's a republic.
When people emigrate to the United States of America, it is expected of them that they would learn American English (at least it was until people like you started promoting this divide and conquer political correctness and diversity nonsense). It's still a perfectly reasonable expectation. If I were to emigrate to, say, Mexico, I would be expected to learn Spanish and that, too, is a reasonable expectation. |
Fully agree with Chancellor, but would not necessarily blame wildchild for the silly expectations that a country change itself to meet the demands of immigrants rather than the other way around. |
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mdk
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Back in the day, I volunteered to help teach immigrant kids in a local school in central california. The accepted manner of instruction was to take an 8 year old just here from Mexico and sit him down in the corner with a totally English dictionary. They told him to sink or swim. Guess what he did?
Today I am back in the states working up my grubstake as a registry nurse so I can go back overseas and get a break from all these 100% Americans. Coincidentally, I am on a prison floor of a small hospital near two rural prisons. About half of the prisoners on this floor, were the beneficiaries of such enlightened teaching methods. There was nothing for them but the gangs, so now we are paying, what? $40,000 a year to keep them imprisoned.
Kudos to you fine, fine Americans for fighting off realism. You people brought their parents in here to work, but you were too stingy and racist to provide an educational chance for their kids. When your tax bill comes around you may here a distant bilabial fricative and a sarcastic laugh. Listen closely, that will be me.
Enjoy your cheap tomatoes. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| rusmeister wrote: |
| Chancellor wrote: |
| wildchild wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So, does that mean we should be providing each of these language groups bilingual education? (Not that you were actually suggesting any such thing, I'm just speculating). |
I'll suggest it!
But what is this we talk? Each one of the communities above has more than enough educated professionals who are quite capable of offering the appropriate services. And we're not talking about one or two families here; they constitute significant portions of the community.
By the way, we are talking about a representative democracy here, are we not?
It seems that some here would prefer to dictate. |
"We" as in American society.
And, no America is not a democracy, it's a republic.
When people emigrate to the United States of America, it is expected of them that they would learn American English (at least it was until people like you started promoting this divide and conquer political correctness and diversity nonsense). It's still a perfectly reasonable expectation. If I were to emigrate to, say, Mexico, I would be expected to learn Spanish and that, too, is a reasonable expectation. |
Fully agree with Chancellor, but would not necessarily blame wildchild for the silly expectations that a country change itself to meet the demands of immigrants rather than the other way around. |
What's interesting about all this is that in the past (before all this political correctness nonsense) immigrants often put forth the effort to learn English or, at the very least, made sure their children learned it. For them, it was part of becoming an American. Today, it's as if people want to live in the United States, be given the rights of citizens, but don't want to be Americans. It is that kind of mentality that keeps America divided (as we cease to have an American cultural identity) - and a nation divided against itself will not stand.
I guess I'm one of the few Americans left who believe in the concept of the melting pot. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Chancellor wrote: |
| rusmeister wrote: |
| Chancellor wrote: |
| wildchild wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So, does that mean we should be providing each of these language groups bilingual education? (Not that you were actually suggesting any such thing, I'm just speculating). |
I'll suggest it!
But what is this we talk? Each one of the communities above has more than enough educated professionals who are quite capable of offering the appropriate services. And we're not talking about one or two families here; they constitute significant portions of the community.
By the way, we are talking about a representative democracy here, are we not?
It seems that some here would prefer to dictate. |
"We" as in American society.
And, no America is not a democracy, it's a republic.
When people emigrate to the United States of America, it is expected of them that they would learn American English (at least it was until people like you started promoting this divide and conquer political correctness and diversity nonsense). It's still a perfectly reasonable expectation. If I were to emigrate to, say, Mexico, I would be expected to learn Spanish and that, too, is a reasonable expectation. |
Fully agree with Chancellor, but would not necessarily blame wildchild for the silly expectations that a country change itself to meet the demands of immigrants rather than the other way around. |
What's interesting about all this is that in the past (before all this political correctness nonsense) immigrants often put forth the effort to learn English or, at the very least, made sure their children learned it. For them, it was part of becoming an American. Today, it's as if people want to live in the United States, be given the rights of citizens, but don't want to be Americans. It is that kind of mentality that keeps America divided (as we cease to have an American cultural identity) - and a nation divided against itself will not stand.
I guess I'm one of the few Americans left who believe in the concept of the melting pot. |
You're not alone... |
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mdk
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Overseas the ability to read, speak and write English is a nice advantage.
In the US, the ability to read, speak and write English is crucial to obtaining an education. So you propose to just dump non-English speaking students into class with no prep, I suppose?
I think what all the children in the US - regardless of where they come from - deserve is a teacher who is committed to seeing that they have the best chance possible to learn and progress-- instead of sitting around and blowing smoke about the way things ought to be or were done by some hypothetical people in past generations.
I saw - when I was working in Indian Health Service - what happens when you take non-english speaking students and totally ignore L1. I also have friends who had to endure being punished for speaking Spanish while they were in primary school. Those that learned anything did so IN SPITE of their teachers and not because of them. It's like some tale from Dickens that makes you want to make sure such people never inflict their "teaching" on children again
If somebody has a political axe to grind about what language ought to be spoken in the US then go ahead. Real, committed teachers leave that baggage at home and devote themselves to educating the student in the most effective manner possible. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Hi mdk!
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So you propose to just dump non-English speaking students into class with no prep, I suppose?
I think what all the children in the US - regardless of where they come from - deserve is a teacher who is committed to seeing that they have the best chance possible to learn and progress-- instead of sitting around and blowing smoke about the way things ought to be or were done by some hypothetical people in past generations. |
Not sure if you were talking about me, Chancellor or somebody else.
FTR I spent 3 years in CA teaching immigrants in the most hopeless condition - public high school. They are ripped from what they know at the ages of 14-16, generally arrive from Mexico with an equivalent of what I saw as maybe a 3rd grade education level in their own language - literacy, history, math, etc, and many don't want to be there and rebel at being forced into English (even ESL) classes. Then they are expected to learn absolutely everything you are supposed to ever learn in school in 4, 3, or often 2 years or even one year! (Depends on how old they are when they arrive.) I remember one situation where I was strongly pressured by the administration to pass a '12th-grade' girl from Peru (she was going on 1 on basic US history so that she could graduate with a US diploma. When I failed her on her final (she hadn't even learned anything all year despite my staying after school and doing some gratis tutoring) the s*** hit the fan. I readily agreed to offer her a second chance, she really did some studying over several days, and was able to minimally pass my simplified test. The admin didn't care if she knew anything or not - they had parents breathing down their necks and just wanted to give her a diploma and get rid of her.
Those kids are generally condemned to careers at the 'Classic Car Wash' or 'Jack in the Box'. When I came with several years prior experience I found that no particular program existed and only a district-approved textbook that addressed cultural, but not linguistic needs. I hauled in Oxford stuff that I had used to great effect in Moscow, and by my third year had hammered out a program that had them doing intermediate English and world history in their 2nd year and got them from pre-history through the Byzantine empire (up to 1500 AD) in one year.
Unfortunately, my efforts to develop anything were always blocked by the district. The district ESL liason and office, ostensibly there to help me, actually blocked my requests to approve my (Oxford ESL) materials (I later figured out that it was because they had a comfy relationship with the publisher Heinle and Heinle) and essentially refused to organize any collegial work between ESL teachers across the district. They didn't give a darn about whether my kids really learned or not - ESL largely didn't count on the assessments of the school - they are written off.
The final straw was when they absorbed my tiny 2-teacher ESL department (mainly for its annual $1,000 budget) into the general English department and said the students didn't need any special consideration. I left.
Anyway, I hope it's clear that I, at least, have not been blowing smoke. |
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mdk
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Rusmeister,
You HAVE been to the wars, my friend 
Your account rings true to me.
Iraq being what it is the powers-that-be have been whipping the "America for Americans" faction into a frenzy to take off some of the heat. It tends to come in waves every 5-10 years and it's really tedious when it is going on. The whole thing makes me crotchedy and irritable until they find something else shiny to distract them. That's OK for laughs, but the kids shouldn't get the short end of the stick.
Good for you on your work. Maybe your unfortunate former students will pull up their socks when they are ready. For all it's faults, most everybody in America can go to the local junior college and catch up their education. I think they just had an 80 year old graduate with a BA in Iowa or somewhere.
P.S. When I was in Moscow last winter, I thought it was downright homey to hear the Russians complaining about the central asians who are taking toilet cleaning jobs away from decent Russian workers. I never saw any Russians queing up for such work. What have you seen lately? |
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MikeySaid
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 509
Location: Torreon, Mexico
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Chancellor wrote: |
Now, notice this from the article:
"At least a dozen teachers from Mexico are expected to arrive in Utah this August to help with the state's growing population of English language learners and its teacher shortage." Now, why would the article need to say "English language learners" if the teachers weren't going to, at least in part, be teaching English? Why not "Spanish-speaking students"? |
English Language Learners (ELL) is the new word for ESL students and EFL students--in the States--because as has been discussed all over the web and here at Dave's... ESL and EFL are insufficient and have their own pre-suppositions (that it's a foreign or second language when in fact it may be neither). ELL is the new politically correct term here in the states and I was recently chastised by a teacher friend because I referred to it as ESL. Go figure.
I guess what's funny to me is that this means the State of Utah will be getting work Visas for Mexicans to come to the US to teach children of parents who may have come to this country illegally. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| mdk wrote: |
Dear Rusmeister,
You HAVE been to the wars, my friend
Your account rings true to me.
Iraq being what it is the powers-that-be have been whipping the "America for Americans" faction into a frenzy to take off some of the heat. It tends to come in waves every 5-10 years and it's really tedious when it is going on. The whole thing makes me crotchedy and irritable until they find something else shiny to distract them. That's OK for laughs, but the kids shouldn't get the short end of the stick.
Good for you on your work. Maybe your unfortunate former students will pull up their socks when they are ready. For all it's faults, most everybody in America can go to the local junior college and catch up their education. I think they just had an 80 year old graduate with a BA in Iowa or somewhere.
P.S. When I was in Moscow last winter, I thought it was downright homey to hear the Russians complaining about the central asians who are taking toilet cleaning jobs away from decent Russian workers. I never saw any Russians queing up for such work. What have you seen lately? |
Let me give you some names:
Humberto
Yesenia
Santos
Quy
Rozena
Deka
Ligicz
Pilar
Juan
Dheeh
Yanelli
Ivan
Jorge
Marco
Fabiola
Yoana
Ilmar
Vielka
Paola
Laura
Amanuel
Rozena
Yoana
(Some of) My kids. I wonder about them, worry about them, and there is nothing I can do for them. I can only hope that I gave them something to help get them past the retarded system.
The situation in Russia now closely mirrors America's - Uzbeks instead of Mexicans, but otherwise the same situation.  A lot of construction is happening, but it is being done by illegal immigrants who accept minimum wage or less because it is better than what they can get in their own countries.
Mikey - right on! (Let's take the next daring step and legalize everything! Anything goes!) |
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MikeySaid
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 509
Location: Torreon, Mexico
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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I find myself in a strange place in a discussion like this one. I CHOSE to learn Spanish starting in 1995 and it is amazingly useful here in California, particularly when I leave the community I am currently living in. I am also engaged to a Mexican woman and moving to Mexico to teach in about a month. Here in California the jobs are not piling up for those of us who speak Spanish because it is looked at as dime-a-dozen.
Need someone who speaks Spanish on staff? Hire a Mexican! That's kind of how it works here... in fact, simply being a non-native speaker (however fluent you may be) calls your abilities into question because most hiring managers DO NOT speak the language and can't even assess your ability level. Most of them would much rather hire a Mexican who speaks "pretty good" English and just trust that they can read and write Spanish--a large majority of those who come to California to work are horrible at orthography and write in the vernacular, often unaware of the simple difference between haber and a ver.
Sorry, I hit a tangent.
Anyhow, many-a-state in this country has a Teaching Fellows program, where they take partially qualified people and essentially pay for them to get qualified and come teach in their state. I've never heard of an opportunity to go to Utah and work with a population like that... but here's the funny thing....
OUR SOULTION IN THE STATES ISN'T TO FIND PROPERLY EDUCATED AMERICANS OR EVEN TO TRAIN THEM... we are seeking labor from abroad to deal with the influx of ENGLISH LANGUAGE LEARNERS.
Subjects like these are often divisive... and I can see why. I am completely divided as an individual. I am for bilingual education... and I think every child in California should be learning Mandarin or Spanish starting in kindergarten. But, at the same time... I think the children of non-English-speaking immigrants should be learning INTENSIVE ENGLISH.
Take a look at the middle class in almost any country and you'll find children learning in at least two languages... and it seems to work pretty well. As for California becoming a Mexican colony... it's funny how cyclic things tend to be. |
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