Job Discussion Forums

[lambada]

Absolutely, I agree. It's a nonsense. Interesting to see if there is some knock on effect over the years. Isn't the attitude towards people from the Mainland extraordinary? Anyone would think that people in Hong Kong were all indigenous. There are some but not many! It never ceases to amaze me how the Mainland pampers Hong Kong with trade agreements and special treatment given the locals' disdain for Mainland people.

[suzie.suzie]

I have recently given the SNET interview. The interview was comfortable and the interviewers were nice. However upon receiving some information about the scheme I am not really sure If I would acceptv the offer if given. The hours you need to spend at the school are way too much. Working on weekends and holidays. I dont think the SNET scheme is good. Better watch out before you say yes...

[misutabiru]

Is there anything else about SNET that turned you off, Suzie? I am going to have to choose between primary and secondary very soon, and right now I am leaning towards secondary.

Mr. B

[hkteach]

As I've said in previous posts, I'm a PNET here. I know many other PNETs and also several SNETs.

While hours at school may be the same, SNET and PNET jobs are very different.
1. PNETs are expected to be able to teach reading - especially at Primary 1 & 2 levels. This is the EMB's recommendation and one which most (but not all) primary schools follow.
Primary schools may have the EMB reading program (PLP-R) in the school or maybe you would have to devise your own program.
SNETs not expected to teach reading per se, but may do debating, oral exams,oral practice. They usually have full responsibility for English with a particular class/classes as well as extras (oral practice, mock exams, debating etc.) with other classes

2. PNETs co-teach with local teachers. They co-plan the lessons with local teachers. If the school does PLP-R, a Classroom Assistant helps out with the reading sessions (so 3 staff present for the lessons) and also makes/asists with making the resources to be used in the reading lessons.
SNETs usually teach alone, with full responsibility for correction, homework, exam marking etc. I haven't heard of any SNET with a CA.

3. From my information, SNETs usually teach more lessons than PNETs.

4. SNET jobs vary wildly according to the banding of the school - if a band 1 English is the language of instruction and these have the high expectations from within the school and also from parents and the students themselves. Lower band schools often have kids with serious attitude and behaviour problems - not always but often - this is because these are the kids who've failed for so long and many have given up/see learning as a waste of time. There's a real range of student achievement, job satisfaction and expectations of the NET across the secondary schools.


Both PNET and SNET jobs should be regarded as lotteries.... your job satisfaction and general happiness will be largely determined by the school you get.
Personally if I qualified for both and had a choice, I'd go for PNET any time.

[misutabiru]

Thanks for that post, hkteach. I was going to send you a PM with some questions, but on the off chance that some other people might have input, I decided to post them publicly.

You mentioned that SNETs have full responsibility for English with a particular class/classes. This is actually something that appeals to me about SNET, but I am not quite sure what I am getting myself into in terms of daily teaching time. Of the people you know who have participated in the secondary scheme, what seems to be the average number of classes for whom they are responsible? I know that schools differ, but the thing is, I have to choose between primary and secondary before my name even gets sent out, so I am just trying to get a general impression of the situation.

Regarding the issue of classroom management, I've heard from other people as well (including the people who interviewed me) that lower band schools can have students with attitude and behaviour problems. I am certainly concerned about this, but what worries me more is the prospect of facing a class of screaming out-of-control primary students. Have you ever had any problems managing your classroom, or is that taken care of by the other teachers in the room?

Finally, while I certainly appreciate the many points you included in your post, I am wondering if you could tell me: what is the single most important factor in feeling that you would choose PNET over SNET "any time"?

Thanks again, to you and anyone else who has any opinions about this. From what you and others have said, choosing the right school can be absolutely essential to the NET experience, so I am really trying to get an idea of what lies ahead.

Mr. B

[suzie.suzie]

I the PNET though you have to teach in two school it's still better than SNET. SNET's have more teaching hours and all the correction and lesson planning lis upto the SNET. However if you are a PNET you will have a chineese speaking English teacher as well. I would check all the details before choosing either one of them. The hours of meetings and working on holidays is the same in both cases.

[hkteach]

In consideration of your questions...............
I don't know how many classes an SNET would teach - that's up to the school and varies accordingly.
But I do know that full responsibility for a specific class is just ONE component of the job - the debating, oral practice, exam practice (and subsequent marking of same) and the other duties that the school issues to the NET can add up to quite a heavy workload.

The issue of discipline can be very problematic. A friend of mine was teaching in a Band 3 school (she said it was actually about a Band 10!!) and was given one of the worst classes, who had little English and no desire to learn. She had no local teacher in that class and some of her issues were................
Kids came in and started playing games - chess, checkers etc. and refused to attend to the lesson. She was told to "^^%$^&% off". Of course, the NET found this unacceptable but the discipline strategies in her repertoire didn't work. Discipline master did not support her. Principal did, but seemed reluctant (too weak) to lean on the discipline master to assist. Although principal had told NET not to worry about teaching the regular curriculum, students not interested in anything the NET had to offer. A high stress and most unrewarding situation. Nothing like what had been anticipated when SNET took the job.

Another situation - NET objects to behaviour of female student and admonishes her in class. Student complains to principal and NET in trouble.
In both above cases, the SNET was a very experienced teacher but was a pushover for these kids.

As far as the single most important issue in taking PNET job over SNET job, that's a tough one............ TWO major issues as far as I'm concerned.
1. The workload is probably much heavier for SNETS (remember all that correction of classwork, homework and essays) The further through the system you go, the more correction etc. there seems to be (and believe me in primary schools it's more than enough to keep a teacher busy for hours every day).

2. The fact that there's a local teacher in the class with you (in primary that's a given.......... i've never taught a class without a local teacher being there and if I were asked, I'd decline on grounds of health and safety/dutyof care issues).
PNETs can have discipline problems too. In my current school, some of the P6 kids (esp. boys) need very firm handling. This is because a lot of these kids are adolescents - maybe 15 years old- and still in primary school. Why?? when they first start at the school they are placed according to their results on school's entry test. Poor results in maths, English or Chinese puts the kid in a low class - maybe with the 6 year olds in Primary 1 even though he's 9!!! So, 15 year old boys in primary 6 is a recipe for disaster. By the time the SNET gets these kids in year 9, they're 17 or 18 and probably very unmotivated.
NOT the set-up that most SNETs have had in their own country.

As I've said before, it depends on the school you get (the banding of the secondary school and the leadership in the place). It's all a lottery unless you can network to find out about the school which makes you an offer,in which case, other NETs may be able to advise you. We support each other via our network and our forums.
On our own NESTA forum,, some departing SNETs recently posted warnings about their current schools. Anyone who read those posts would hear loud alarm bells and contact the out-going NET, but those not yet here wouldn't know.
Sorry if the above sounds negative (I'm sure it does) There are some very good secondary schools here and some very happy SNETs too - many stay for many years - but there are some truly awful places for both SNETs and PNETs.

As far as I'm concerned, it's hard enough getting a satisfactory deployment, adequate holidays, reasonable working hours and support in the school, without having to worry about handling out of line, disaffected secondary kids on your own.

[hkteach]

On re-reading my post, it seems enough to deter many from even considering an SNET job.
That was not my intention - just wanted to alert newbies to some of the issues at the chalkface. Forewarned is forearmed.

Hopefully, for the purpose of a balanced view, it would be good to hear from an SNET who could make some positive comments about their job.

[11:59]

[11:59]

[hkteach]

Many good points 11.59.
A couple of comments:-
1. Re the one PNET/2 schools issue - I worked in this situation for three years - one of these placements was AM/PM so one week I worked 7.30am -2pm and the second week 11-6 (ish). Both schools expected to work alternate Saturdays (total of 2 a month) but after my first Saturday at each I refused to go again. Why?? When I asked what they wanted mevto do I was told "You can do your preparation" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so I told them I could do that at home and if they wanted me to come in for something worthwhile I'd come, but to sit from 8.30am - 11.30am doing nothing was a waste of my time. They never mentioned it again.

This is one thing I can never understand about some of my NET colleagues..........they simmer in silence (or complain to other NETs but don't deal with it in an appropriate way) with the consequence that they're stuck with it AND have thrown away their ability to negotiate on anything in the future.


2. Re. the kids being placed years behind their age peers....... a new student was placed in P2. He was 9 years old. He'd just returned from Australia (where he was born and educated and he had completed 3/4 of year 3. After speaking to him, it was clear he had " close to native speaker" English competency, so I asked the predictable question... " Oh yes," said the teacher " his spoken English is very good, but he's not good at writing Chinese" so he has to start in P2 so he can learn that" Anyone here heard of providing additional support for such situations???.

And yes, the kids newly arrived from the mainland are the ones who most often face this awful situation.
But in my current school, there's a 9 year old Pakistani girl with good spoken and written English and good maths skills (but poor ability with Chinese characters)
Is it any wonder that there has been so much agitation by the ethnic minority groups here wanting appropriate educational provision for their kids.

3. Most of the older primary boys (those who are 15) have told me that they're 11 or 12, like the majority of the kids.

4. Re meetings in Canto. I've never been asked to attend any of these but many NETs are expected to sit through these, even though the EMB has asked schools to excuse their NET from same.

Recently my spouse went to an interview for a NET job and asked about the issue of meetings in Canto. "Oh yes, we expect all staff to attend these meetings." Response: "Well, seeing I don't speak any Cantonese, it would be a waste of my time to sit through 3 hours of it". No negotiation forthcoming, so that school was struck off the list of possibilties.
If a school is non-negotiable on this issue, it should raise red flags.

[Lao Wai]

[Horizontal Hero]

How well you can "negotiate" will depend on the character of those you are negotiating with. Don't think you can put it over the locals just because you are the gweilo - although some certainly do. The problem is if you push the wrong buttons, you could put yourself through hell. Hell knoweth no fury like a Chinese manager scorned! Really, there seems to be a cultural thing with being incapable of letting things go- and I've seen it all across Taiwan, the mainland and Hong Kong (I have worked in all 3 places). So you have to use your intuition to know when you are pushing too far. And always be respectful, even if you are being firm. Like all negotiation, take the time to know your "adversary" - i.e. build realtionships in the school - be the first to say hello - walk up to teachers and talk to them and so on.

I mention this because the principal in my previous school was a total *beep*, and had zero communication skills. He was totally inflexible. I made one mistake - taking a day off to be with my wife who was taken to hospital with a serious health problem (I was there at the hospital all night - but the principal still wanted me to come into school with my wife in great pain and with my having had no sleep!) - after that he would not talk to me or acknowledge me - literally! Managers in my current school are far more affable.

As for the Cantonese meetings, 11.59 is indeed correct that the Hong Kongers just loooooove their meetings. They are truly pythonesque - utterly absurd wastes of time, with managers standing up before passive audiences and lecturing for up to two hours on God-knows-what topic to a comatose audience (many of whom may well be asleep at any given time).

[misutabiru]

That's a pretty grim picture of SNET. While not completely scared off, I've decided to give PNET some serious consideration. At first I had imagined being put in charge of a class of wee ones all by myself, which was a bit of an ugly situation when it happened in Wuhan.

I remember that at my SNET interview, they were really pushing for me to join the secondary scheme. The differing salary caps were mentioned, and they thought I was more suited to secondary, but other than that they didn't seem to have any reason for the push. My gut feeling was that they seemed a little desperate for SNET participants. I keep thinking, "How bad can it be?"

And now I know. As you said, forewarned is forearmed. I appreciate the advice. Still waiting to hear from some SNETs with positive experience, though...

Anyone out there?

B

[anninhk]

Yes, it's a pity that no SNETs have contributed with a positive experience. I personally know quite a few who have had a very successful time at their schools. Like everything else it is part of the NET scheme lottery. I was lucky and won but some aren't so fortunate.