Job Discussion Forums

[dreadnought]

Here's one for the board, and it's something that's always puzzled me.

As any teacher worth his shiny CELTA certificate knows, he should carry out 'needs analysis' with his students to find out whether they want to do grammar, vocabulary etc in class, play games or do exercises, do more speaking or listening, go to the pub on a Friday blah, blah, blah. This may involve giving out a questionnaire, or just asking them outright (which is normally met with a collective shrug of the shoulders, as if to say 'why the hell are you asking us, you're the teacher?').

My question is: why are they called a 'needs analysis' when they are quite clearly a 'wants analysis'? I've had lots of students who have insisted that what they want is more grammar, when it's quite obvious what they need is more speaking. Are what students want the same as what they need? What if it's blatantly clear that they are not the same? Do you still give them what they want, even if it's clearly doing them no good? Do you try and change their mind? All this learner-centred stuff is all well and good, but if they can't reflect on their own learning, why bother asking them in the first place?

Thoughts anyone?

[joe-joe]

Hmmm.... Needs vs. wants. A good question. I intially ask private students what they want from the sessions, since they are the customer. Then as time goes on we review their 'wants' and then perhaps tailor our lessons by mutual agreement to suit their needs, which have become more apparent. It is true that some students do seem incredulous as to why they are asked as to what they want. Mnay express their expectations as much as wants.

At the schools where I've worked we used the placement interview and questionnaire to get some idea of what level they should be at, but in school classes tend to cover all language skills and grammar as a matter of course. I tend to find private students are generally out for speaking practice and vocabulary acquisition which supplement the work they are already doing in class at a school.

So maybe the term 'needs analysis' is perhaps an expression which serves as a catch all for student needs/wants/expectations.

[dmb]

Students don't always know what they need. I tend to carry out needs analysis, psuedo psychology tests and learning style questionaires whenever I get a new class. I then focus on the differences and highlight on the different answers/needs/responses. we are a class. we are not a homogenous class therefore sometimes you will enjoy/benefit from certain activities and not from others. And so sometimes when you are not 'learning'your friends are. We are in this together,etc.
Maybe it's true maybe it's not but it helps with an initial improvement in classroom dynamics. And that gives us, as teachers something to start off with.

[denise]

When my students pass through my program, they will (in theory, if not always in practice) then start taking courses for college credit. There are many academic skills that the students need--many of which, based on what my colleagues and I see in our program, they clearly lack. I don't do a needs analysis because the students need those skills (paraphrasing, summarizing, making connections between texts, making academic presentations, understanding the main idea & details of lectures, etc., etc.) whether or not they want them, and many students might not even know what it is that they need. (They might say, "I need help with my writing," but they might not know that they need help writing an introduction, using outside sources, not plagiarizing, etc.) I do spend a few days at the beginning of each term explaining skills and strategies, though.

Oh, and just for background: we have separate reading, writing, speaking, listening, and grammar courses.

d

[Roger]

There is a misconception here - students don't WANT any of what we have got to offer, neither "oral English" (in my view, the dumbest invention in language training), nor grammar.
They have to be cajoled into obeying and doing something that we think is useful for them later in their lives.
But none of them knows "what's useful 'later' in my life"?

[FGT]

As joe-joe says, the private student is a customer and therefore their wants are paramount. Unless those wants are met, they will cease being customers. It is therefore our duty as professionals (who provide a service, for a fee, but always with the correct motives in mind) to provide the students with a needs analysis questionnaire or similar which we can then discuss with the student. Eg: Student says "I want to improve my speaking". We can then suggest that listening might be a useful adjunct to this or that the student could benefit from some vocabulary work in order to be better at speaking etc. We have to be good sales people in this job and this is good sales/customer service technique AND it works for the student. It is virtually impossible for a student to concentrate only on eg speaking (unless there is a very specific goal in mind, such as a one off presentation) so we can start educating the student before we start teaching him/her, by listening to the wants/needs.

With classes, dmb is right to use democratic examples - the students all feel they are getting (some) of what they want and they begin to respect one another's needs. This can even develop into peer teaching/support etc

Something I like to ask students about is how much homework they want/expect. If they are the ones who specified half an hour, three times a week (for example), they are not in a good position to complain when I give them it!

[Wolf]

[Dr.J]

I work in a public junior high school, so the students are told they need English, as well as maths science etc. What they want isn't really relevant.

Which is fair enough, because if you gave kids what they really wanted, everyone would end up very stupid and very good at computer games. Although I am pressed sometimes to explain why we all need to know algebra...the 'it trains your mind' answer doesn't seem to have any evidence behind it, or does it?

I am engaged in the challenge of giving students what they need while making them think it's what they want at the same time.

[shmooj]

dmb's right. As language teachers we see further than the students into the language learning process. In doing so, we see things that they need to have in place if they are going to attain their goals (wants).

So, I don't feel there is a great conflict here. If a student says they want to be able to watch movies in English (80% of adult women say this in their interview), then that is fine. What they then need are a whole range of things like connected speech, listening for gist, cultural info, body language, vocabulary etc and what they don't need are things like spelling, writing faxes, skimming and scanning or self-introductions.

Now, I don't tell them any more than something like "Oh, listening to movies. That's tough but not impossible. You will need to work hard but that's a good aim." I don't spell out what they need to them. What's the point? I simply then address the needs I have surmised from their stated want by incorporating activities which will build these skills into their classes.

So having students express their wants enables me to carry out a needs analysis by reflecting on what they say these wants are. They are two different processes that occur simultaneously. But they are different.

[Sherri]

Q1 My question is: why are they called a 'needs analysis' when they are quite clearly a 'wants analysis'?

Good and interesting question! I believe it is called a needs analysis because it is from the point of view of the teacher not the students. It is based on what the students say they want, you should decide what they need.

A lot of times the needs analysis is done by the institution, not the teacher, so the textbook and/or materials have already been decided.

Q2 I've had lots of students who have insisted that what they want is more grammar, when it's quite obvious what they need is more speaking. Are what students want the same as what they need?

You can learn a lot by what your students think they need. So if they think they need more grammar, maybe they are right, they do need grammar --just look at where they have problems. As you wrote, they may actually need more speaking. Embedded in their speaking and fluency problems is probably how to use grammar in communicative situations, so they need this kind of grammar practice, not formal grammar presentations.

Q3 What if it's blatantly clear that they are not the same? Do you still give them what they want, even if it's clearly doing them no good?

Sometimes learners have very fixed ideas of what they should be learning. Like here in Japan, students feel like they are learning when they are getting a formal grammar presentation because that is what they got at school.

It is up to you to frame the needs analysis to get the information that you can work with. Open ended questions, like "what do you want to work on in this class" may not work with Asian students (for example) who are used to the teacher making these decisions.

At my school we have had success with asking students about halfway through the term to comment on activities they had done that they had found useful (but the school had already done a needs analysis at the beginning of the term) and to request certain activities that they would like to do in the future. By this time, we had time to teach them how to be more responsible for their learning so it was more meaningful for both of us.


Q4 All this learner-centred stuff is all well and good, but if they can't reflect on their own learning, why bother asking them in the first place?

Yes true, so first try to get them to reflect on their own learning, then you can get more out of them.

[dduck]

[been_there]

Well, first off a seperation between private language schools and academic institutions. At a private language school, you are there to entertain and serve the customer. If they say they want to sing "Hotel California," well, you better get the autoharp out. In an academic setting, however, the needs are goal-oriented. "Passing the final exam" is the need I saw the most. Other examples are ESP courses, or to understand professors who lecture in English.

And Needs Analysis' are not just finding students affective needs.

A needs analysis is NOT just an interview of the students. Teachers can provide input. Hell, if I was doing an ESP course for a tourism degree, I would go to the local hotel and ask THEM what the most common guest complaints were, and where they used English the most. They would know a whole lot better than the students.

[Ben Round de Bloc]

I don't see needs and wants as the same in the context of analysis. Rather, I see needs as the way to try to satisfy or achieve students' wants (goals.) Students' wants/goals might be to pass the FCE exam, be able to communicate fluently in English in business meetings, read research articles written in English, or understand the English lyrics of popular songs. When we do needs analysis, we try to figure out what the students lack towards achieving their goals. The next step would then be to decide the best way(s) to move students in that direction. In my opinion, few students are capable of doing their own needs analysis. That's the job of trained teachers and administrators. Once the needs analysis is done, again it's the responsibility of teachers and/or administrators to provide those things necessary to move towards the goals, things such as the best materials, methods, techniques, facilities, etc.

Some students' wants/goals are quite unrealistic. A student whose current level of English is somewhere around zero might want to be able to speak English like a native speaker in 6 months. A student whose reading comprehension in English is extremely low might want to be able to read and understand research articles in professional journals when he starts grad school in 4 weeks.

Somewhat related, I recently did the ol' choose-your-next-teacher activity with some of my university EFL classes. Very few students chose the applicant who would most likely be the best qualified to help them achieve their goals, in my opinion. First off, they eliminiated all candidates who couldn't speak Spanish. Based on their own past experiences, they said English teachers who couldn't speak Spanish couldn't explain things very well to them. Many students eliminated the candidate who was 44, because she was too old. Most of them didn't choose married candidates, because if someone had family responsibilities, he/she wouldn't have enough time to dedicate to the job of teaching. However, almost all gave preference to candidates with teaching experience and training.

I realize all of this puts many EFL teachers between a rock and a hard place. Especially if a person is teaching in a private language school (a business out to make money,) and if a student is very adamant about what he thinks he wants, it would be pretty difficult to tell a student, "I've done a needs analysis, and this school isn't in a position to provide what you want, so I suggest you find a different school."

[Sorry, this post turned out to be much longer than I'd intended. ]

[jud]

Interesting, here in Italy we tend to get the opposite of what many of you have said. Here the majority of people say they want "conversation" classes because they "know all the grammar."

Many of these people are false beginners and cannot begin to put a sentence together. Others are intermediates who can speak but often translate directly from Italian and are therefore at times incomprehensible. Don't get me started about "knowing ALL the grammar." I don't know that I do.

I'm the head teacher, so it's my job to test students and find out their wants and needs. I then put a program together for more complicated/specialized needs/wants and choose an appropriate book and material for all cases.

We are pretty honest with students. We tell them that all classes include all 4 skills, and that grammar is an integral part of any class. If they really never need to write, we may not include this in the course. We also tell beginners who want to do the PET, etc. that they're not ready.

I personally believe that "free-conversation" is not particularly useful as a full lesson. That is, conversation classes should always be directed towards some function, grammatic point, or skill building (thinking on your feet, conditionals,....).

Something that we face a lot is teachers who change the program based on an off-comment that a student makes. For example, a teacher who starts doing general English because the student says he/she doesn't use English at work, while said student actually wants a business English class to expand a bit.
I think this is where a good administration comes to play.
A good administration should be able to keep in mind a student's wants, evaluate their needs, and keep a dialogue open with the teacher to see how both progress.

[struelle]